General Corona Virus Discussion

HMC

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I am nearly 71, I caught Covid January 2021 before vaccination was available, having not been ill for over 50 years it took me out of action for 2 months, not enough for hospitalisation but it was not good. After the first 2 Oxford Astra jabs no side effects/ feeling ill, after the Pfizer booster felt a bit like flu for a day. Would I have another booster, to true I would, I have seen too many people die or have severe symptoms of Long Covid not too.
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Uwe

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I hardly think that someone of your obvious intelligence and your elevated powers for critical analysis would be swayed into accepting that vaccines stop COVID infection - purely because of the occasional wrong statement!!
Uhm, those statements were anything but "occasional".

That said, those of us who were actually paying attention early in the injection campaign noticed the substantial spikes in infection reported in care homes right after the first round of injections and began questioning the efficacy narrative right then and there.

Of course, that spike happened after the first injection, but before two weeks past the second, so it was all reported as part of the "unvaccinated" statistics.

How is it possible to conclude that without vaccines - the world's medical infrastructure would have survived the subsequent onslaught of successive waves of infection mutations that resulted in staggering increases in infection numbers - simply by noting that when infection numbers were low, said institutions didn't collapse??
This can't be a serious suggestion to support nay-sayer's position??
Certainly it can. There are plenty of countries where to this day, "vaccination" rates are quite low. Has the medical infrastructure in those places, such as it exists, collapsed?

In fact, there seems to be a strong correlation between injection rates and infection rates. The places with the most injections also have the most infections. But I suppose you'll tell us that's just coincidence, much like all the vaccine injuries and deaths.

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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In fact, there seems to be a strong correlation between injection rates and infection rates. The places with the most injections also have the most infections.
@Uwe: I must apologize for my incredulity - but this unfolding dialogue is becoming curiouser and curiouser!!

To date, I had understood your lament against vaccines to be two-fold; the tyranny of denying individual freedoms and the claim that vaccines are ineffectual in both infection control and disease control (I agree that vaccines are ineffectual in infection control)

Then you lifted debate up a notch by adding the trifecta assertion that not only were these vaccines unable to treat their designed contagion, but they were actually dangerous because they had an elevated propensity to result in systemic and fatal side effects - like significantly increased rates of heart failure in the young.

Shirley you are not now making the further, astonishing suggestion that there is evidence that COVID vaccines actually cause increased infection rates too?

Wow, in your eyes - COVID vaccine must certainly be a medicine directly from hell (I'm assuming of course that you believe that such a place exists for satanic pharmacists)!!

To quote the Bard's Queen Gertrude, "The lady [man] doth protest too much, methinks" :thumbs:
 
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Uwe

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Shirley you are not now making the further, astonishing suggestion that there is evidence that COVID vaccines actually cause increased infection rates too?
KlibAVn.gif


-Uwe-
 

Jef

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I put my faith in science and listen to those who know what they are talking about. You know what rubs me the wrong way... when some one calls up with a poor running engine and won't do a compression test because they are sure it is fine... :banghead:
 

Uwe

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You know what rubs me the wrong way... when some one calls up with a poor running engine and won't do a compression test because they are sure it is fine...
So "warp speed" diagnostics and an unwillingness to do proper testing bothers you?

Good, because it should. :)

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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So "warp speed" diagnostics and an unwillingness to do proper testing bothers you

"warp speed" diagnostics?? unwillingness to do proper testing?? huh??

How are these alleged shortcomings defined? As a man of numbers (which you surely must be) - how much "testing" and diagnostics is sufficient?

There were clinical trials of vaccines; two months after the SARS-CoV-2 genome was sequenced and shared, the first phase I clinical trials began in March 2020. Yes, phase II clinical trials began before phase I clinical trials ended. And yes, for many COVID-19 vaccine clinical trials, phase I and phase II clinical trials were combined to help speed up the progress. But so what - it was a race against time and people were dying! Someone had to make a judgement call. Not ideal, I agree - but hardly the definition of vaccine failure by any reasonable measure.

It would be fantastic to live in a world with unbreakable barriers - with each phase of vaccine testing neatly sectored in a strict hierarchy and with total disregard to what's happening in the real world. But real life just ain't like that - and the COVID virus doesn't respect such a protocol!!

And post release, there have been 10.8 Billion further tests of COVID vaccines administered into human arms to date. For emphasis, that's 10.8 followed by 9 x zeros (and it can include 3 x commas)!!

Yes, these doses have not been distributed evenly across ALL the souls that currently inhabit this lonely blue planet - but 56% of humans have been inoculated with at least one dose. That's a massive and quite extraordinary 4.4 Billion humans

Can you identify any other medicine in the history of pharmacology that has had anywhere near this testing?

And to your probable point about "proper testing" - no, testing doesn't stop at the end of phase II trials. It doesn't matter that this post-release testing wasn't done in the artificial environment of clinical laboratory trials. Each COVID vaccine injection in a real live arm is a form of post clinical trial testing!!

Now, I'm not aware of any large scale systemic problems from the 4,400,000,000 test subjects that have been vaccinated. And, despite what some might believe, I would have thought it almost impossible for evil governments around the world to keep secret massive serious consequences from vaccines. So I have to assume that the real life testing regime for COVID vaccines has been unparalleled !!

Don
 
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Uwe

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Each COVID vaccine injection in a real live arm is a form of post clinical trial testing!!
Yes, indeed it is. But for some reason, it took a lawsuit and a court order to get Pfizer to release any of the data in a timely fashion, and by "timely", I mean within our lifetimes. Here's the first batch:

The one is particularly interesting:

Note that this data only covers December 2020 through February 2021, i.e. the very beginning of the injection roll-out, by which time there were already 42,000 reports of adverse events, with over 1,200 of them being fatal.

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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@Uwe: as I have said in the past - the battle of citations in this place does little to advance either side's position

However, what is irrefutable in our different positions is the numbers.

Again, 10.8 Billion real live test cases of COVID vaccinations around the world into 4.4 Billion people.

According to your extraordinary claims, this level of vaccination should have resulted in mass carnage and world-wide fatalities the like of which humanity has never seen (remember the numbers; 56% of EVERY human on this planet is a test case - that's more than every second individual).

Even if I believe that Governments around the world are complicit in an orchestrated attempt to harm their citizens via the vaccine roll-out (which I do not), there is no way in the 21st Century that this level of death could be hidden!!

And if Governments around the world are not evil, but instead they were duped by the avarice of pharmaceutical companies - again, it's simply not possible to hide the death numbers that you assert.

This stuff isn't a matter of opinion - its pure unadulterated logic - it's rational deduction!!

Don
 
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RGH0

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"The one is particularly interesting:
https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

Note that this data only covers December 2020 through February 2021, i.e. the very beginning of the injection roll-out, by which time there were already 42,000 reports of adverse events, with over 1,200 of them being fatal."


The report is interesting but not particularly useful as it does not include any analysis of the relationship of the fatalities or other reported adverse events to the vaccine injection itself versus other possible causes of the events and their existence in the general population.... people die all the time. It also provides no detail on the number of vaccination injections given in total that the adverse event reports relate to. It also does not analyse the benefit versus risk ratio in any detail or provide any data on that but concludes that their is no new data to change the positive benefit versus risk analysis done when the vaccine was authorised for use.

Uwe, you do a good job ( even if I disagree on the details) of analysing all the other things that go on that make Covid a less significant disease than it is and where people, governments, pharma companies etc beat it up for a range of suspected reasons. Reports like this need the same analysis.

The normal media approach of taking a single data point like "1200 deaths" without putting it into context can always scare people and get eye balls :) and why headline sub editors have a job in the first. This applies both to the traditional media as well as the new social media. I suspect you could have use the same report as a basis to write a headline like "Pfizer Covid vaccine prevents 100,000 deaths in first 3 months"
 
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Uwe

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the battle of citations in this place does little to advance either side's position
Considering you're on the Follow The Science™ side, I find your disdain for citations to be rather curious, and that goes double when the citations come directly from the pharmaceutical company that makes the product in question.

10.8 Billion real live test cases of COVID vaccinations around the world
Yes, except that many (quite possibly most) of those 10.8 billion are not the mRNA, lipid nanoparticle shots, which are all we can get here in the USA at this point. So no, it's nowhere near 56% of the population of the world that's been injected with the shots in question here. There are also Adenovirus-vector, inactivated virus, and protein sub-unit vaccines that have been widely deployed.

it's simply not possible to hide the death numbers that you assert.
What numbers have I asserted other than the ones specifically stated in Pfizer's own report? I have made no extrapolation.

I'll just say this: If any other vaccine had been associated with 1200 deaths in the first three months of roll-out, not to mention 42,000 reported adverse effects, it would have been stopped instantly, and it certainly wouldn't have been authorized to be used in people (in this case, young healthy ones) who are at a statistically negligible risk of death from the disease itself.

-Uwe-
 

Uwe

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people die all the time.
Yep. We do have the same question as we do for COVID itself. Did these people die of or with the vaccine? Another question we might ask is: Where is the autopsy data? Why is it not standard procedure to perform an autopsy when someone dies within a few weeks of receiving these shots?

It also provides no detail on the number of vaccination injections given in total that the adverse event reports relate to.
Right, I find that rather curious myself. One might expect that Pfizer would have a pretty good idea just how many people had received their shots within the first three months of the roll-out. So why didn't they include that figure, or at least an estimate?

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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Considering you're on the Follow The Science™ side, I find your disdain for citations to be rather curious, and that goes double when the citations come directly from the pharmaceutical company that makes the product in question.

haha - nice try, but I have no such "disdain for citations" and I have no problem with scientific literature.

To make my point again and as I have indicated multiple times in respect of my comments on "the battle of citations " - this thread is littered with links to scientific literature that supports BOTH sides of the COVID vaccine debate. In each instance where such references are used, the OP claims that his/her particular citation is the absolute definitive truth - in exactly the same way that you assert "that goes double".

Would it really be helpful if I included a barrage of citations that oppose your citation? I very much doubt it! This doesn't mean that I somehow refute the value of scientific analysis - it simply means that I don't believe that these instruments have been useful in the past - in this place

Yes, except that many (quite possibly most) of those 10.8 billion are not the mRNA, lipid nanoparticle shots, which are all we can get here in the USA at this point. So no, it's nowhere near 56% of the population of the world that's been injected with the shots in question here. There are also Adenovirus-vector, inactivated virus, and protein sub-unit vaccines that have been widely deployed.

OK, so my understanding is now that you are not against COVID vaccines in general - your issues relate purely to "the mRNA, lipid nanoparticle shots, which are all we can get here in the USA at this point".

I hadn't appreciated this distinction!!

What numbers have I asserted other than the ones specifically stated in Pfizer's own report? I have made no extrapolation.

I'll just say this: If any other vaccine had been associated with 1200 deaths in the first three months of roll-out, not to mention 42,000 reported adverse effects, it would have been stopped instantly, and it certainly wouldn't have been authorized to be used in people (in this case, young healthy ones) who are at a statistically negligible risk of death from the disease itself.

Whilst Pfzier report is interesting, it's not particularly helpful in supporting the claims that you make. The report says " it is estimated that approximately B4 doses... were shipped world wide" during the period of analysis (B4 is meant to be a reference note). So we don't even know how large the cohort was for this study.

In any event, it matters nought because my point is still valid - all that changes is the area, which is now limited to USA; If this mRNA vaccine is so dangerous (as you appear to believe) and with the increased vaccination numbers in USA since the study - why aren't the mortuaries overflowing in every State of the Union. And why isn't there a revolt in the community from the relatives and/or the loved-ones of the deceased?

Surely such a devastating outcome from governmental corruption could never be silenced within America?

Where is the obvious evidence of this mortally dangerous medicine given that Google reports that 554 Million doses have been administered in USA to date?

Fact is that the numbers are even more compelling in USA because whereas world vaccination=56%, 65% of the population in your country is now vaccinated with this dangerous medicine (that's almost two out of every three citizens)!! Why isn't the systemic fatal side effects of the mRNA vaccines evident in undeniable numbers?
 
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Uwe

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this thread is littered with links to scientific literature that supports BOTH sides of the COVID vaccine debate.
Well, at least you're willing to admit that there is room for debate, and aren't contending, "The Science is settled!"

OK, so my understanding is now that you are not against COVID vaccines in general - your issues relate purely to "the mRNA, lipid nanoparticle shots, which are all we can get here in the USA at this point".
I'm not even "against" those, for anyone who actually wants them.

What I'm against:
  • The mandates.
  • The "passports".
  • The blatant lies were were fed regarding safety and efficacy about one year ago.
  • The unwillingness to properly investigate injuries and deaths that have a close temporal association with these injections.
  • The utter lack of transparency, which made informed consent impossible.
  • The continued push to eliminate anything resembling a meaningful control group.
  • The continued push to inject young, healthy people, who are at negligible risk from the virus itself.
Surely such a devastating outcome from governmental corruption could never be silenced within America?
What? Are you simply unaware of the censorship in the media (both legacy and social) of anything that questions the official narrative, or are you willfully ignoring it?

Why isn't the systemic fatal side effects of the mRNA vaccines evident in undeniable numbers?
So a 15.5% increase in total mortality for 2021 and a 19% increase YTD for 2022 in the USA doesn't qualify? Yes, some of that is "of or with" the virus itself, but nowhere near all of it.

Then there's the ~40% increase in mortality among working-age people reported by insurance companies. This is an age group with low expected mortality, both from normal causes and from the virus.

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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So a 15.5% increase in total mortality for 2021 and a 19% increase YTD for 2022 in the USA doesn't qualify? Yes, some of that is "of or with" the virus itself, but nowhere near all of it.
OK - I consider myself to be a reasonable fellow; one who can be persuaded by the undeniable truth of numbers

So, let's examine your curious hypothesis that "nowhere near all of" the increased mortality (in a peroid where a pandemic raged through USA) was due to COVID - but rather, it was predominantly the result of the highly dangerous mRNA vaccine that was tyrannically and cruelly enforced on an unsuspecting population.

And for the sake of brevity, permit me to choose just 2021 as the analysis year - and further, allow me to make an easy, back-of-envelope calculation - please (because I am a simple man who dislikes obfuscation)

here we go:
The reference number for my analysis is your claim that for USA in 2021, the death rate increased by 15.5%
According to HERE, the underlying death rate in USA excluding the impact of COVID (the disease, not the vaccine) in 2020 was 8.880 per 1,000 people.​
According to HERE, the USA deaths attributed to COVID (the disease, not the vaccine) in 2021 was 386,000
In 2021 - the population of USA was 332,915,073
Therefore in 2021, deaths from COVID (the disease, not the vaccine) in USA represented 1.159 per 1,000 people (i.e 336,000 divided by 332,915)​
If I simply divide 1.159 by 8.880 - I conclude that deaths by COVID (the disease not the vaccine) in USA in 2021 represented a 13% increase over the death rate in 2020​
Therefore - of your claimed 15.5% increase in death rate, about 13% was indeed due to COVID (the disease, not the vaccine). Now, I'm not sure about "naysayers"- but there is nothing unexpected about this number (for me, at least); the result is entirely unsurprising given that a highly dangerous and virulent disease was raging in the community.​
In truth, the result of the calculation is testament to the nonsense that is often pedaled by "naysayers" that COVID is no more dangerous than the common flu​
This leaves just 2.5% unexplained​
But it ain't that bad because according to HERE, the underlying USA death rate without COVID impact climbed in 2021 by 1.09%. Which leaves a tad under 1.5% unexplained. To be clear, simply because 1.5% is unexplained in my analysis doesn't mean that any part of this number can be attributed to deaths from vaccines. It only means that I haven't accounted for 1.5% in my back-of-envelope calculation​
Bottom line= the assertion "nowhere near all of it" just ain't factual​

As I have already said, the numbers don't lie - there is simply no evidence in the public domain to support the claim that COVID vaccines are dangerous medicines that have resulted in mass carnage (either in USA, or world-wide)!!
 
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PetrolDave

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As I have already said, the numbers don't lie - there is simply no evidence in the public domain to support the claim that COVID vaccines are dangerous medicines that have resulted in mass carnage (either in USA, or world-wide)!!
Mass carnage not, but there is well sourced evidence that Covid vaccines, like all vaccines, have caused some unexpected deaths (e.g. blood clots following an Astra Zeneca jab).

For me the real $64,000 question is whether the accelerated testing and approval regime for the Covid vaccines has lead to a higher additional death rate than other vaccines that have been subject to the normal much more time consuming test and approval process.

If the additional death rates are similar then the 'fast track' approval process is most likely to be of value for testing and approving other vaccines; if the additional death rates are higher then IMHO whether or not to have the Covid vaccines must be a matter of personal choice and not mandated by law in any country.
 

Uwe

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Bottom line= the assertion "nowhere near all of it" just ain't factual
There a major flaw with your analysis. A substantial portion of the people who died "of" or "with" COVID were in such ill health to begin with that they would have died soon whether they got COVID or not, and thus were not "excess" or "unexpected" deaths.

Remember, the average age the people that died "of" or "with" COVID is actually higher than average life expectancy in most places, and many of them were in care-homes, where the average length of stay before leaving on one's final journey isn't much more than six months.

Can I provide you with an actual percentage? No, I cannot, but I'm quite confident that it's much higher than your flawed "back-of-envelope" calculation.

-Uwe-
 

Uwe

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If the additional death rates are similar then the 'fast track' approval process is most likely to be of value for testing and approving other vaccines; if the additional death rates are higher then IMHO whether or not to have the Covid vaccines must be a matter of personal choice and not mandated by law in any country.
Please remember, none of the stuff we're using here in the West is an ordinary, traditional vaccine.

An ordinary vaccine introduces an antigen into one's body directly, either in the form or a weakened, attenuated, or deactivated pathogen, or in the form of protein sub-units from such a pathogen. The immune system then learns to recognize that antigen and develops a response to it.

The mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) and the viral-vector vaccines (AstraZeneca and J&J) do not work that way. Instead of introducing an antigen directly, they introduce an RNA or DNA coding that causes your own body's cells to make the desired antigen. Neat trick, right? Yeah, sounds good on paper.

But what happens when a person's body already has an immune response to the antigen its own cells are making? For example, because that person has already had COVID, or had one or more previous injections, and is now getting another?

Right, his immune system recognizes the antigen and starts attacking the source -- the cells making that antigen, just as it would attack cells that are infected by the virus the immune system is supposed to protect against.

Now this is no big deal if the cells are ones that can easily be replaced, such as muscle cells; you get a sore arm, but the muscle cells that the immune system has killed are replaced in relatively short order and you carry on as before. However, we know for a fact that these injections do not stay put in a person's arm; they have been detected all throughout the body. So what happens when heart cells, which are basically irreplaceable start making that antigen? Can you say long-lasting, potentially permanent heart damage? What happens when endothelial cells in blood vessles start making the antigen? Can you say blood clots?

This is just one of the problems with this new "vaccine" technology. mRNA vaccines have never been used authorized for use in humans before. Viral-vector vaccines have been used against Ebola (a disease with a CFR in the double digits!) in Africa, but have never been widely deployed.

Bottom line: Both of these technologies are quite novel and we have no idea how much damage we're inflicting on people who are receiving these injections.

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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Mass carnage not, but there is well sourced evidence that Covid vaccines, like all vaccines, have caused some unexpected deaths (e.g. blood clots following an Astra Zeneca jab).

For me the real $64,000 question is whether the accelerated testing and approval regime for the Covid vaccines has lead to a higher additional death rate than other vaccines that have been subject to the normal much more time consuming test and approval process.

If the additional death rates are similar then the 'fast track' approval process is most likely to be of value for testing and approving other vaccines; if the additional death rates are higher then IMHO whether or not to have the Covid vaccines must be a matter of personal choice and not mandated by law in any country.
Dave: yours are quite valid concerns and they have been raised in the past in this place.

Yes indeed, if anyone was expecting COVID vaccines to be entirely side-effect free medicines, then they are extremely naive - and they are living in a world that doesn't exist.

And also yes, there were instances of vaccine related deaths recorded (mostly in the early phase of the roll-out). However, whilst every death is tragic- what happened in these cases was the normal response of a professional heath-care system; the fatalities were identified and techniques were developed to treat and to minimize these deaths whenever they occurred. And, these learnings and better treatment techniques have been successful in lowering already low deaths from these causes!

However, you are correct in that the fatalities were not eliminated entirely - but I would hope, and I'm fairly certain that you would agree - that such an expectation would be fanciful nonsense!

As far as the assertions made in this debate are concerned, the important aspect of these unfortunate side effects is that the low instances of vaccine related deaths were managed in the open - sans the cabal of evil governments- without the back-room plots from immoral pharmaceutical companies whose avarice for profit prevails over their value for human lives - and totally free of the contrivance of any other nefarious "star chamber" that might have secret ambitions to overthrow world order (I really find it incredulous that I have to write this stuff).

So now we come to your $64K question - which is really the crux of this matter. My totally truthful answer is, I don't know and with due respect to your position, neither do you and neither does anyone else that has a beating heart.

I don't know what would have happened if the traditional Phase I/Phase II protocols were strictly enforced. Would the "blood clots following an Astra Zeneca jab" have been identified through adherence to the sequential process? I don't know - but I very much doubt it given the REPORTED low numbers.

And for the record, claiming that COVID vaccines have failed because of the "fast track" approval process is drawing a very long bow indeed!!!

Of course the naysayers will claim that the danger of these medicines would have been identified under the stricter sequential protocols. But, given their belief that the fatalities from vaccines are so high - why weren't these fatalities equally obvious under the accelerated testing regimes?

So- where we appear to differ is in the respect of the 3 x time zones: For the past and for the present, my position is that there is no evidence (for emphasis - none, zilch) of substantial numbers of deaths from COVID vaccines. You and I could argue ad-infinitum about the exact fatality statistics- but in the end, any agreement in changed numbers would be at the margin.

For the remaining time zone; the future - no one knows how, or if these novel vaccines will have a detrimental effect on humans. But I'll bet London-to-brick that neither you nor anyone else can identify a single thing that provides any degree of certainty to the question of what will happen in the future!!

If humanity's response is to not proceed when faced with the reality of potential unknown future impacts from present day decisions - we would ALL be swimming in a primordial slime of ignorance!!

The reality that "these technologies are quite novel" (from @Uwe) does NOT condemn them.
 
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