General Corona Virus Discussion

DV52

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Feel free to drift, illegal seizure of power is the reason the scandemic was brought about. Figure it out folks, we are being SCAMMED.
What rubbish!! The coronavirus pandemic is not a scam;(fact-check) it is a global outbreak caused by the virus SARS-CoV-2.

Bandying about cute alliterations like "scandemic" and imploring readers to "Figure it out folks" - as if COVID deniers somehow have an intelligence better than the rest of humanity (who presumably are too stupid and gullible to reach the same conclusion)- is palpable nonsense and it's dangerous (I will leave it to others to judge whether it's also egocentric and arrogant). Unbelievable!!

@Fred's Imports : If you are so riddled with concerns about every government on this planet wanting "seizure of power", then deal with these primal fears as a matter separate to COVID - please
Don
 
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Uwe

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Unbelievable!!
No more so than the over-reaction by those who would have you believe it's a civilization-ending problem. :p

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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No more so than the over-reaction by those who would have you believe it's a civilization-ending problem. :p

-Uwe-
Agree 100% - and somewhere between those 2 x absurd extremes is the truth (and it's not the mid-point)!!

The existence of zealots at either end of the spectrum does not justify COVID deniers encouraging others to believe that COVID is a scam.

Don

PS: For clarity- I do not believe that COVID (in its current incarnations) is a "civilization-ending problem"! However, I do believe that COVID has the real potential to do serious harm in our communities - and it's this potential that needs to be addressed.

I'm not so arrogant as to believe that there is only one solution to COVID. Nor do I deny that there may be other, better forms of control for the contagion - but, try as I have, I've certainly not heard of any viable alternative from the nay-sayers (just more, endless critiques about vaccination programs)

And no, by any definition of the quality of humanity, the extreme suggestion to "learn to live with it" is not a viable alternative. I'm not sure if I would go as far as to suggest that the "do nothing" strategy is a form of natural herd-immunity imposed genocide - but I've absolutely no doubt that such a strategy would quickly and inevitably result in the complete collapse of the world's medical infrastructure and as a consequence, ordered society!!

And again to Fred's claim that COVID is the manifestation of Governments around the world seeking to gain more control -such paranoia is delusional rubbish. It's an example of how fringe elements in our societies attempt to leverage their beliefs through conflation of disparate ideas (obfuscation by complication)

If it was only, just plain wrong (which it is - wrong) such drivel could be ignored - however, with COVID it's also dangerous - so it needs to be called-out for what it is; patent balderdash!!!!
 
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Fred's Imports

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And again to Fred's claim that COVID is the manifestation of Governments around the world seeking to gain more control -such paranoia is delusional rubbish. It's an example of how fringe elements in our societies attempt to leverage their beliefs through conflation of disparate ideas (obfuscation by complication)
Check the deaths in your local paper lately?
 
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Crasher

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Looking back to the early 80’s, the world went into a tailspin over HIV which was also going to be civilisation ending, there still isn’t an actual cure but we’re still here, well most of us!
 

Uwe

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Looking back to the early 80’s, the world went into a tailspin over HIV which was also going to be civilisation ending,
Since you bring it up, I'll remind everyone that the same sad little man was behind much of the initial hysteria, suggesting that HIV could be spread via casual contact, blocking treatment with inexpensive, readily available drugs, instead pushing what was at the time the most expensive drug in history, that didn't work well at all by itself (AZT). Oh, and of course he insisted that the real solution to the HIV problem would be a vaccine.

Yet somehow this sad little man is the highest paid bureaucrat in the USA, and has been allowed to control our COVID-19 response.

there still isn’t an actual cure but we’re still here, well most of us!
Correct. The world has learned to live with it.

-Uwe-
 

RGH0

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Check the deaths in your local paper lately?
I am not sure how this relates to claims around Covid being an international government conspiracy to impose more controls on people, can you explain the link further?

The answer was 41 for Victoria mostly unvaccinated or elderly ( certainly some with co-morbidities) but still the equivalent of a jet crash a week in just this state of 6 million and I dont think learning to live with it would be the only answer to that either.

Fortunately the current wave will pass and the progressive easing of restrictions will continue as the combination of vaccinations and boosters and natural immunity and unfortunately the deaths of the vulnerable builds
 

DV52

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Check the deaths in your local paper lately?
Fred: Yes indeed, I have read the paper(s) lately - both local and international. It's a practice that I indulge regularly!

The deaths in today's papers are the result of the contagion prevention strategies that have been implemented around the world (albeit according to @Fred's Imports - for no other reason than citizen control).

Are the death numbers low enough? No.
Have governments done enough? No.
Is "learn to live with it" a viable alternative? No
Is there a better alternative to vaccination? None that I have heard-of. But you tell me -by descibing the alternative in sufficient detail so that my sub-100 IQ can understand!

You may not think it - but I respect everyone's opinions and I pay particular attention to those views that differ from mine (because they are the playground for my education)

However, and I say this with complete honesty -you scare the living bejesus out of me! Not because I believe that your claims have any merit whatsoever - but rather, what frightens me is the conviction that there is no more dangerous a man than someone who believes that truth has only one face!

I hope that I am incorrect in my assessment. As a forum colleague who greatly values your impressive and obvious technical skills, I cling to the prospect that I am wrong!

Nevertheless, as I understand for the present (and whilst you are completely entitled to hold your beliefs) - I really have just one reply for a position that COVID is a clandestine instrument of world government's averace for power; utter- hogwash!!

Don
 
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DV52

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Looking back to the early 80’s, the world went into a tailspin over HIV which was also going to be civilisation ending, there still isn’t an actual cure but we’re still here, well most of us!
@Crasher: I'm not sure that I understand your point- so I'm forced to read between the lines.
Are you saying:
  1. HIV has a close resemblance to COVID?
  2. HIV was an instrument of Government's grab for power (or, perhaps the more prevalent hypothesis at the time - HIV was/is a deity's revenge for the sin of homosexuality)?
  3. HIV should have been managed by the "learn to live with it" strategy?
  4. Any wrong statement in the media by anyone in power means any mainstream treatment of HIV, or COVID is bunkum?
  5. Because there "isn’t an actual cure" for HIV, the medical exercise failed - and because COVID also hasn't-been/won't-be cured, vaccines have likewise failed?
Again, the nay-sayers attempt to obfuscate their position by conflating disparate ideas!

Don

PS: from HERE
"Strategies are different for containing Covid-19 and AIDS because their means of transmission and patterns of infection are different. HIV/AIDS primarily is transmitted sexually, secondarily by needle sharing. Public health approaches to modifying sexual practices, such as limiting the number of partners or promoting condom use, can be partially effective over time but have never been sufficient to tame the AIDS pandemic. Moreover, HIV infection is for life. Those infected are potentially contagious to others for a decade or more.
Strategies are different for containing Covid-19 and AIDS because their means of transmission and patterns of infection are different. HIV/AIDS primarily is transmitted sexually, secondarily by needle sharing. Public health approaches to modifying sexual practices, such as limiting the number of partners or promoting condom use, can be partially effective over time but have never been sufficient to tame the AIDS pandemic. Moreover, HIV infection is for life. Those infected are potentially contagious to others for a decade or more.
Covid-19 on the other hand is airborne. Wearing masks, social distancing and short term isolation are sufficient to prevent infection. The SARS-CoV-2 virus quickly peaks within a few days of infection, then rapidly fades. Most people are contagious to others for no more than a week to ten days. These public health measures prevent transmission: testing to identify those infected, contact tracing to identify those exposed, then stringent isolation of those infected for a short period."
 
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PetrolDave

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It strikes me that internationally we have mostly been ignorant of the 'normal' level of winter deaths from influenza, data I saw a couple of weeks ago shows that in the UK the current rate of deaths in the UK attributed to Covid (incidentally other data shows that around 45% of those are not DUE to Covid but the Covid infection is incidental) is LOWER that the 'normal' rate of deaths from 'flu.

Surely that suggests that we have become over sensitive to the death rate from Covid since a higher death rate from 'flu has received little or no attention for many years ('unusual' 'flu variants excepted)?
 

Uwe

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It strikes me that internationally we have mostly been ignorant of the 'normal' level of winter deaths from influenza
Yup. In post #500 in this very thread, I pointed out that (recent, but pre-Covid) winters past, it was not at all unusual to see hospitals "overwhelmed" with flu patients.

-Uwe-
 

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Surely that suggests that we have become over sensitive to the death rate from Covid since a higher death rate from 'flu has received little or no attention for many years ('unusual' 'flu variants excepted)?
That can be because some people are excluding deaths from Covid where the deceased had a pre existing condition. Just because someone had dementia, diabetes or some other non life threatening illness, doesn't mean they didn't die from Covid. They could have survived for years longer if they hadn't contracted Covid.
Regards HMC
 

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@Crasher: I'm not sure that I understand your point- so I'm forced to read between the lines.
I am not that complicated and don’t believe in all these big business, government control and conspiracy theories, yes there will be some but not to the extent people like to fantasise about, I don’t believe everyone is out to get us, some people are but it isn’t government policy. My point with HIV was the insane over reaction, yes people died but at the time it was portrayed as the end of the world, which it wasn’t. It is the same with Climate Change, completely bonkers over reaction, the “emergency” is in their minds.
 

DV52

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It strikes me that internationally we have mostly been ignorant of the 'normal' level of winter deaths from influenza, data I saw a couple of weeks ago shows that in the UK the current rate of deaths in the UK attributed to Covid (incidentally other data shows that around 45% of those are not DUE to Covid but the Covid infection is incidental) is LOWER that the 'normal' rate of deaths from 'flu.

Surely that suggests that we have become over sensitive to the death rate from Covid since a higher death rate from 'flu has received little or no attention for many years ('unusual' 'flu variants excepted)?
Dave: I believe that you are correct about the tendency for the sensitivity of communities to alter with the amount of attention that is given to a topic. I suspect this is just the nature of being human.

That said, I'm not sure how one gauges what is an appropriate level of sensitivity for anything - or if a particular level of community sensitivity is a measure of the veracity of a thing, or not. Or even if it is at all possible to measure community sensitivity as a single number (or as a definitive range of numbers)

For example- most in the community have an aversion to killing an animal for consumption. Of course it's not "wrong" (if the slaughter is done humanly) to do so - ALL non-vegetarians (me) depend on this practice to survive. But nevertheless, the sensitivity persists and most in the community accept and understand the obvious hypocrisy. Does this mean that everyone should be forced to slaughter animals for their own food because the sensitivity is incorrect? Clearly a rhetoric question!

I can't remember on what side of the COVID debate you sit - but I can recall the position that COVID is no more dangerous than another version of the common flu being posed in this thread in the past. I suspect that it is yet another convenient arrow in the quiver of "nay-sayers'" arsenal

I could cite numerous studies that support the position that the impact from the COVID global pandemic is very different to the common flu - but I've absolutely no doubt that the "nay-sayers" can reply with a barrage of studies that conclude the opposite. We ALL know from past experience that the battle of citations does very little to advance argument in this place!

As I have said, I have no idea whether the current level of community sensitivity about COVID deaths is appropriate! Ask some-one who has lost a relative/close friend to COVID and they will give you a completely different answer to someone who has the fortunate luxury of viewing COVID deaths as an academic exercise in numbers.

Of course, the latter will claim that they have the truth of science. However, community sensitivity to the death of our neighbors/friends/loved-ones is NOT something to which science can add much meaning - because community sensitivity is about feeling; it's an emotional response, it's not a logic response! And no, at least for this human response to trauma, logic is not the bastion of truth!!

Nevertheless, it's an interesting question. If indeed it is possible to turn what is ostensibly a melange of individual value judgements into a single meaningful metric - and if there is common agreement on this single number - and if the answer is "yes" - what does this mean?

Don
 
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Uwe

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I am not that complicated and don’t believe in all these big business, government control and conspiracy theories, yes there will be some but not to the extent people like to fantasise about, I don’t believe everyone is out to get us, some people are but it isn’t government policy.
Do a bit of digging into Klaus Schwab, his World Economic Forum, and their openly stated goals.

Then look at how many of the alumni from their Young Global Leaders program are now in high positions of government all over the world.

-Uwe-
 

DV52

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Spot the real Klaus Schwab?
pX0gbOh.png
 
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RGH0

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All viruses evolve and Covid is no exception. The normal forces of evolution tend to make viruses more infectious and less deadly as this increases the spread of the virus and improves its RNA survival. Where Covid is on this journey is debatable but it is surely on this journey ( yes I know don't call me Shirley :)

Is the common flu today a descendent of the Spanish flu of 1918 to 1920 ... probably in my opinion. In another 50 years will the common flu be a descendent of Covid .... maybe.

It's all about how it is managed over the next 50 years
 

Crasher

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I read a number of years ago that scientists don't have a pure sample of the Spanish flu and there was talk of going to an island in the northern hemisphere where some victims are buried and who's bodies my be protected in permafrost so preserving the virus, never heared any more about it.
 

DV52

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Victoria and NSW ease Covid restrictions​

(from HERE)

For those in this place who hold that COVID is an instrument of world Government's avarice to subjugate their peoples' freedoms - perhaps not welcomed news from Australia's 2 x most populous States !!!

Now, I happen to agree with WHO that easing restrictions is premature - but the reversal is testament of the bone-fides of the decision makers (IMHO).

And if the nay-sayers are still not convinced - then at the very least, the reversal demonstrates that the motives for government imposed "tyranny" are not as strong as the effects of the restrictions on the underlying economy!!!

Don
 
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Fred's Imports

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Gee I wonder why??????????

Protesters in Canberra with face burns from LRAD device used on them.

Elderly woman in Ottawa trampled by police horse during a peaceful protest, she was using a mobility scooter.

Don if you don't do anything else in your life WAKE UP!
 
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