General Corona Virus Discussion

Uwe

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My assessment is that the beneficial outweigh the non beneficial in this case.
I have no qualms with you making that assessment for yourself. Your body/life, your choice. Just don't attempt to force your choice on others.

all cars must have airbags
Indeed, but people can still drive older cars that had no such requirement, or remove them and replace the igniters with the appropriate value resistors if they're so inclined. ;)

-Uwe-
 

RGH0

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Yes governments create mandates in many areas of life everyday and I believe they should be minimised to the greatest extent possible. When it comes to mandates that impact your body / your life it starts to get a much more complex debate as this thread shows and it is even more important for governments to limit what they do in this area

The data is always imperfect and what level of risk benefit ratio is acceptable cannot be defined easily and government over reach in the name of political correctness or seeking support from their voting base happens. At least in a democracy you tend to find greater flexibility in the implementation of government mandates for the minority who are opposed ( e.g. you can disconnect your airbags still) and you always have the ability to vote out a government which imposes mandates that are unacceptable to the majority.

One of the reasons the high vaccination rate in Australia was achieved was that the promotion of vaccination was via encouragement and education and finally restriction on travel and working in high exposure industries. It was not done by any simple one size fits all government universal mandate.

cheers
Rohan
 

rks

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The Airbag comparison is not applicable. Because as the last decades showed, that there are very few airbags popping without reason, killing drivers without having an accident.
Regarding Biontech and VAERS, the number of your popping airbags is in the thousands.

I have never heard of a driver who suffered a thrombosis, stroke or heart attack because of an airbag. Or a pericarditis or a shingles... (more in VAERS).

Biontech as a stock company does earn money with sick people, not with healthy ones. And they confirmed this with their behavior in the past, as anyone can read on Wikipedia.
I see a significant risk that you injected the seed of illness into your body.

Funfact: They now offer a "vaccine" against one of the side effects of their Covid "vaccine". It is against shingles. :facepalm:
Harvest time.

If this is too much of a mental burden for you, I can find this fact for you.
 
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DV52

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.........Now whatever that number is for a particular age and risk category, it means that one person out of that large number of people who got vaccinated got the benefit of not going to the hospital, not being admitted to the ICU, or not ending up dead, but all of them took whatever risk of (supposedly rare) serious side effects the vaccines have.

-Uwe-

@Uwe: Whilst I disagree with your COVID stance, I do enjoy reading your comments because they keep adding more intellectual flesh to the virtual skeleton behind the picture of Dr Strangelove that is the foundation for this forum. Your dialogue with my countryman (apology to @RGHO for interrupting in the discussion) is a further insight into the jig-saw puzzle (for me)!

Again with @RGHO forbearance, I'm not surprised at the discussion about NNV and I assume that you are not suggesting that in the complexity of a world wide pandemic - this single metric should be viewed as the seminal determinant of vaccine efficiency (or even that NNV has prominence over other measures like the more usual metric "Relative Risk Reduction" -RRR). As I'm sure you will agree - with all statistical measures, each has its place and it's limitation - for example (from The Lancet):

".......number needed to treat (NNT) is not an intrinsic property of a treatment, it is rather a property of the population that receives a treatment: for a constant relative risk reduction, populations of different baseline risks will have different absolute reductions. Therefore, NNT comparison of different treatments across studies should be avoided, because sample populations will always have baseline risk variations. Indeed, this approach is the actual" reporting bias."​
The point above made, I am surprised at your conclusion (bolded in the extract above)! I'm not sure what to make of this and I seek further clarification as to it's meaning!

Using your numbers and accepting for the sake of the example that this one metric is the definitive number of vaccine efficiency (which is drawing a very long bow indeed, IMO of course): -
if the entire population of America (330 Million) were vaccinated, the number of folk that would be protected from harm (measured however you want) would be about 1.3 Million. Are you really saying that this is not worth the effort because the risk of side effects to the vaccinated is too great?​
And I ask my question again:
Even accepting that the particular batch of vaccines on offer might not be ideal, these type of debates are better informed by discussing solutions, rather than by constantly highlighting perceived problems in other's approach. So, if your position is that vaccination is an ineffectual/dangerous defense against COVID - what is your preferred alternative method to combat this world-wide pandemic? Please don't tell me that in the highly interconnected world in the 21st Century, the better way to deal with COVID is to simply allow the pandemic to take its natural course!! :cry:

Don
 
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DV52

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Biontech as a stock company does earn money with sick people, not with healthy ones. And they confirmed this with their behavior in the past, as anyone can read on Wikipedia.
I see a significant risk that you injected the seed of illness into your body.
@rks: Hi...interesting!! I realize that the emphasis of your position against vaccination is a tad different to that of @Uwe - but I nevertheless ask the same question:

Even accepting that the particular batch of vaccines on offer might not be ideal, these type of debates are better informed by discussing solutions, rather than by constantly highlighting perceived problems in other's approach. So, if your position is that vaccination is an ineffectual/dangerous defense against COVID - what is your preferred alternative method to combat this world-wide pandemic? Please don't tell me that in the highly interconnected world in the 21st Century, the better way to deal with COVID is to simply allow the pandemic to take its natural course!! :cry:
 

rks

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@DV52:

Medicine and general approach to reduce the risk of severe courses has been public and accessible at any time for more than 1.5 years, if one shows any interest at all.
It is your job to educate yourself, not mine.

As for your risk regarding Omikron: Well, do you not understand the RKI figures I linked or what is your problem?
If you are looking for a treatment or a protection against Omikron, a psychiatrist in your area might be the right contact.

Regarding anxiety disorders or cults I don't have so much experience to tell what could help you.

@Crasher:

Why don't you first check your arguments and then write? Wrong order and I will not reply to further nonsense. Checking the Takata thing results in:
"How many people have died due to Takata airbags?

There have been more than 330 injuries and 30 deaths reported worldwide, with one death and three injuries in Australia, including one serious injury."

Now check VAERS and compare. The airbag comparison just shows the opposite of what you intended to show.

BTW: No one has the right to decide what comes into my body. Accept it or get the consequences.
 
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DV52

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Medicine and general approach to reduce the risk of severe courses has been public and accessible at any time for more than 1.5 years, if one shows any interest at all.
haha- cute response!!

Allow me (please) to respond by publicly acknowledging that I accept that you have knowledge of a viable alternative to vaccination that is beyond my understanding.

And for the moment at least, let's agree that the alternative to vaccination has indeed been in front of my face this last 1.5 years - but because of a diminished IQ, or because of my intellectual prejudice, I've not recognized it.

And further, let's also agree that my deficiencies have also been shared with virtually every democratic/communist (or otherwise despotic) government on this fragile blue planet - who have been motivated by other sinister objectives, but who have nevertheless failed to implement said alternative approach

So, with this pissing contest resolved - in your favor, I invite (again) that you disclose the broad specifics of the alternative to vaccination that you propose: I don't (can't) know from your words - but I assume that you are not saying that the world-wide pandemic should be fought by personal hygiene, bed-rest and over-the-counter cough medicines!!

It is your job to educate yourself, not mine.
haha - again, cute (avoidance) response - I think that I've read this same response on another post on this thread - but not sure where (I can't find it now)!

Please re-read my request; I wasn't asking to be "educate[d]" - I was asking about your alternative to vaccination in sufficient detail to understand how it works (nothing more and nothing less).

By any reasonable definition of the word, this is NOT a request to "educate" - it is a request to explain. And I make this request again (please) - this time with more detail, so that my sub 100 IQ can understand!!

As for your risk regarding Omikron: Well, do you not understand the RKI figures I linked or what is your problem?
If you are looking for a treatment or a protection against Omikron, a psychiatrist in your area might be the right contact.

Agree- but alas neither the RKI numbers in your link, nor my therapist's explanation have helped!! :thumbs:.

My request was not to read yet another critique about how NOT to proceed in a global pandemic. This forum and countless other sites are replete with suggested reasons why other's methods (mainly vaccination) don't work. These arguments might be interesting, but they avoid totally the issue about how we should proceed.

The pandemic is here and it has been here and will remain here for some time. Meanwhile the disease rages in our communities - so the focus by detractors of the current control methods is misplaced (IMO).

You, me and the rest of the souls on this planet need answers, not more endless critiques!!

Hence, I want to know your proposal regarding how we should proceed - I ask my question again-please!

Regarding anxiety disorders or cults I don't have so much experience to tell what could help you.
In this matter I'm similarly at a disadvantage!

That said, it is naive in the extreme to dismiss, or to ignore the broader societal concerns that have resulted from COVID. Communities are made-up of folk with human traits - so, societal health must include psychological health. In a 21st Century world with 8 Billion souls - it's sheer nonsense to believe that a global pandemic is solely a medical problem of infection control!
 
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Crasher

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I read in the Sunday Wail yesterday that there are calls to scrap the way they do the statistics in the UK and make it clearer, don't know why their bothering though, half of people will think it is lies and the other half don't give a toss.
 

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I read in the Sunday Wail yesterday that there are calls to scrap the way they do the statistics in the UK and make it clearer, don't know why their bothering though, half of people will think it is lies and the other half don't give a toss.
The statistics published in the UK have become increasingly meaningless - especially the "died within 28 days of a positive Covid test" which according to data I saw last weekend 45% of which did not die BECAUSE of Covid but some other cause and them being Covid positive was purely coincidental.
 
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Uwe

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if the entire population of America (330 Million) were vaccinated, the number of folk that would be protected from harm (measured however you want) would be about 1.3 Million. Are you really saying that this is not worth the effort because the risk of side effects to the vaccinated is too great?
The thing is, you don't need to vaccinate the entire population to protect those who are actually at risk from serious harm from this virus. Young, health people have a close to negligible risk of needing to be hospitalized, much less needing ICU care or dying if they catch this virus, and the risk to children is even lower. However, the risk of serious adverse reactions to the "vaccines" actually appears to be higher in the younger population. Did it make sense for really old people, especially those living in care homes to get vaccinated? Probably. They are the ones who are mainly at risk. We've known since the very beginning (northern Italy) that the average age of death with/of Covid is right about the same as the average life expectancy. This has not changed.

But none of this matters. In the end, there is no justification to mandate "vaccines" that do almost nothing to prevent infection or transmission. They were already ineffective last summer, likely due to a combination of waning antibodies and a lack of effecacy against Delta. Now with Omicron being the dominant variant, their efficacy at preventing infection and transmission is zero or even negative. Look at the numbers world-wide. The countries with the highest percentage of vaccinated folks also have the highest rate of infection. Don't tell me boosters are the answer either. See Israel, where a huge portion of of the population is already boosted with a 3rd shot, and a substantial percentage has now gotten a fourth. Their infection rate is completely out of control. Oh, and daily deaths there approached record levels as well.

Sorry, but vaccination as a strategy has failed, and to make or keep it mandatory now, is absurd and a crime against humanity.

-Uwe-
 

Uwe

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Communities are made-up of folk with human traits - so, societal health must include psychological health.
And making people wear ineffective face coverings is really good for psychological health, right? :rolleyes:

-Uwe-
 
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Someone spotted that one poor chap had been classed as dying with Covid because he got run over...
 

Crasher

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What annoys me about the masks is when walking around the supermarket I can't perv and check out all the fit women, very bad for my mental health.
 
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DV52

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And making people wear ineffective face coverings is really good for psychological health, right? :rolleyes:

-Uwe-
@Uwe: We have discussed this before. My answer to your question is still a resounding "yes" , "ja", "qui", "是的", "да"!!

Although I agree that in all probability the wearing of face masks ("diapers" to use a pejorative from your previous posts) is of little medical benefit in some (not all) circumstances - I am absolutely convinced that the practice is hugely beneficial - and it's specifically beneficial because of the psychological impact!

For example, a minor benefit of the practice is that it allows citizens to easily identify those in their community that might-not share the mainstream value-set for COVID infection control! I deliberately use the term "might-not", rather than "do not" because there are a range of reasons why individuals might not wear "diapers" - and I use the term "minor" because of course, nothing stops vaccine-detractors from wearing "diapers" so that they remain hidden in our communities!

But nevertheless and without implying any particular motive on those not wearing face masks - these are the individuals that it's better to steer clear of - if at all possible. In risk-management speak, it's called "prudent avoidance" and moving around in a social context in today's world is very much a risk-management exercise.

So, yes, the identification benefit of wearing a face mask is "minor" - but in an environment where every person in the community is a potential COVID carrier (which is correctly how we should think), it's better than nothing - IMHO of course!

But and as I have indicated in the past, the major psychological benefit from wearing face masks is the converse - meaning that it provides a social license; it's a kind-of a badge of acceptance of mainstream COVID infection control. So, rather than each citizen individually proclaiming their acceptance to others that they pass as they walk-down the street - the face mask delivers this message.

Now you might respond by saying "nonsense"! To which I would reply- there is fear in the community - COVID has resulted in additional distrust of our neighbors - Infection control has provided a platform for those in our communities with complaints. COVID has altered our lives fundamentally - it has altered how we think about each other and it has generated a new list of concerns in our societies- we ain't living in the world as it was pre-COVID

It doesn't really matter whether these fears are real, or if they are manipulated by the media, or by vested interests in pharmaceutical companies, or by the clandestine conspiracies of nearly every form of government around the world. Again, these fears are present in our communities - and they need to be addressed to hold our societies together whilst the necessary medical interventions take their course.

For me - the requirement to wear a face mask is trivial in the extreme. I gladly comply because the cost/benefit balance is hugely positive - not from a medical perspective, but from a psychological view point

And finally, if the impost of wearing face masks is anywhere near the worst impact that we will confront in combating a world-wide pandemic - then I am a happy man. Let's not sweat the small stuff!!

Don
 
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DV52

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Sorry, but vaccination as a strategy has failed, and to make or keep it mandatory now, is absurd and a crime against humanity.

@Uwe: strong words of conviction indeed!! And?

What is your alternative?

Don

PS: Don't be "sorry" - I happen to share your credo that in Uwe's Bar, ALL views are equally legitimate. I have no problem with counter-views (I welcome them)- I just want to understand them in sufficient detail to make my own informed judgement as to their merit!!
 

Uwe

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For me - the requirement to wear a face mask is trivial in the extreme.
So you think it's a triviality to be raising a generation of young children who can't learn to read people's facial expressions?

I don't.

-Uwe-
 
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RGH0

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"Sorry, but vaccination as a strategy has failed, and to make or keep it mandatory now, is absurd and a crime against humanity."

While vaccinations may not prevent all infections they do prevent some. They also prevent some hospitalisations and some ICU admissions and some deaths. They have certainly prevented the Australian medical system from being overwhelmed in the Delta and Omicron waves in Australia in combination with other controls and minimised deaths due to Covid ( recognising that "due to" versus "with" is often hard to determine from the statistics). So at least in Australia it has not failed as part of the overall strategy and the negative impact of vaccinations appears to be far less than the beneficial outcomes as part of that strategy so far at least in Australia.

The question on whether it should be a "mandated" versus a "voluntary" part of a strategy gets into the complex area of individual freedoms versus societal protection and this is the role of governments to determine in my opinion. If I disagree with the government line taken then (at least in a democracy) I can vote to have them removed and if enough of my fellow citizens agree with that then that will happen. What other mechanism would you want..... storming of your parliament by an unelected group aiming to overthrow the constitution and democratic election results?
 

Uwe

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What is your alternative?
Learn to live with it. Be like Florida. No restrictions at all since late summer of 2020, and vax mandates/passes are prohibited by state law. You want injections? They're readily available; take as many (or as few) as you wish. You wanna wear a mask? You're free too, but few people do.

The UK and Denmark seem to be heading there as well.

It's endemic, and none of the violations on basic human rights, such as bodily autonomy, the ability to freely engage in commerce, or travel, are justifiable. The virus isn't that that dangerous, and it should be abundantly clear now that none of those measures are particularly effective either.

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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So you think it's triviality to be raising a generation of young children who can't learn to read people's facial expressions?

I don't.

-Uwe-
@Uwe: Interesting point (nice thinking)!

I hadn't considered that the mandate for wearing face masks would have a generational impact - because, whilst I suspect that COVID will be around for many years, I assume that wearing face masks will not be mandated over such a long period.

However, if indeed fear in our communities from the infection is so tenacious that a face-mask mandate is needed for period spanning such a long period - then with respect, I suggest that the lessened ability of our children to read people's facial expressions will be the least of our problems!!

Plus, do you know of any scientific study that links wearing face masks with a child's ability to read faces?

Don
 
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