General Corona Virus Discussion

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PetrolDave

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Fun stuff action and reaction!
It was reported in the UK that the level of allergic reaction to the Pfizer vaccine so far is lower than the level each winter to the annual 'flu vaccines.
 
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   #523  

Jack@European_Parts

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Uwe

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It's becoming a test. How long will people put up with crap like this before they say, "Enough!" and just ignore these sorts of edicts?

-Uwe-
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Is it a ploy to scare the mASSes into taking an unproven solution or to be the mASS Koolaid exodus line at the pavilion?

 
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DV52

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It's becoming a test. How long will people put up with crap like this before they say, "Enough!" and just ignore these sorts of edicts?

-Uwe-
Uwe: Really? Shirley not a serious suggestion??

I hope a local UK forum member will correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand - citizens of that country are perfectly free to say "Enough" at any time and leave the community that remains oppressed under the jack-boot of tyranny (because there can be no other reason for the UK PM to impose lock-down restrictions than his secret desire to subjugate the populous during the Christmas period)!!

However, if the "Enough" say-ers are such that their conviction is not sufficient for them to leave the community, they face a regime of fines. That's precisely why the fines are there - to identify those that believe that COVID restrictions=tyanny and yet they remain in the community to enjoy its benefits!

So, a very simple choice for those that believe that COVID restrictions = tyranny; comply with the rule-of-law and continue to enjoy the benefits of living in the community - or, have the courage of their convictions and find a community elsewhere that shares their views. Unfortunately, in matters of community cross infection where the actions of one affect the health of all - individuals can not be allowed to practice their own countervailing strategies.

Of course the other option is a revolution - a tad extreme perhaps, but these are interesting times!!

Don
 
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   #527  

PetrolDave

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It's becoming a test. How long will people put up with crap like this before they say, "Enough!" and just ignore these sorts of edicts?
They already are, all trains out of London yesterday evening were full, with announcements that social distancing wasn't possible and if you weren't happy with then then you should get off. The major roads out of London were also busier than a normal rush hour.

Londoners were escaping the Tier 4 restrictions to be with families in other areas before the Tier 4 restrictions came into force at midnight.
 
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PetrolDave

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I hope a local UK forum member will correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand - citizens of that country are perfectly free to say "Enough" at any time and leave the community that remains oppressed under the jack-boot of tyranny (because there can be no other reason for the UK PM to impose lock-down restrictions than his secret desire to subjugate the populous during the Christmas period)!!
Travel into or out of Tier 4 areas is not allowed, hence the rush to leave before that came into force at midnight.

Police have been deployed to restrict travel in to and out of Tier 4 areas, mainly around London:

Tier 4: Extra police deployed to crack down on non-essential travel
 
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Uwe

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Is it a ploy to scare the mASSes into taking an unproven solution
Well, the current crop of vaccines are certainly unproven. Not in terms of effectiveness; I have little doubt that they are reasonably effective, but the long term effects are unknown, and many "rushed" vaccine have caused problems in the past. Of course every vaccine carries some risk, but normally the risks are well established and greatly outweighed by the benefits. In the case of Covid, the benefits to most people are marginal, and the risks over any time period longer than a few months are completely unknown.

So why is it that effective treatments like Ivermectin are being ignored and vaccines are being deployed instead? Follow the money. Ivermectin is dirt cheap; you can buy enough to treat a 1200lb horse for $3.00, and admitting that it's effective would, by black letter law, preclude the FDA from issuing the Emergency Use Authorizations for these vaccines. Instead, they'd have to be proven safe over a period of years, just like every other vaccine that's gone through the normal approval process.

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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Travel into or out of Tier 4 areas is not allowed, hence the rush to leave before that came into force at midnight.

Police have been deployed to restrict travel in to and out of Tier 4 areas, mainly around London:

Tier 4: Extra police deployed to crack down on non-essential travel
Dave: Yes, it was the same here. So, the opportunity for escape was limited -and necessarily so, given the rising infection numbers in the community (time is of the essence in fighting a pandemic). But it was well publicized for those with a yen to seek freedom in another place!!

It would be an interesting juxtaposition to compare community reactions in lock-down for the distant cultures in UK and Australia (albeit Australia has adopted much of its practices from our colonial masters)!

I guess that the Christmas period doesn't help and I'm sure that no one in UK is happy with the lock-down - but is there a palpable sense of tyranny in the your community against the restrictions? Or, are citizens generally accepting that the temporary suspension of civil liberties is worth-while?

Don
 
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HMC

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Don,
Living in a UK Tier 4 area ( highest restrictions), I can tell you that the vast majority of people accept the restrictions as a necessary evil to buy us some time to slow the spread and get the vaccine out. Most people I speak to were choosing to restrict activity over Christmas even before the stricter rules came in.
With regard pushing vaccines to make a profit, the Oxford University/Astra Zeneca is being provided at cost price AstraZeneca promises virus vaccine at cost price worldwide (medicalxpress.com)
Regards HMC
 
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PetrolDave

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I guess that the Christmas period doesn't help and I'm sure that no one in UK is happy with the lock-down - but is there a palpable sense of tyranny in the your community against the restrictions? Or, are citizens generally accepting that the temporary suspension of civil liberties is worth-while?
As HMC says the vast majority accept the need for these extra restrictions, but there is a small minority that for personal reasons are ignoring them - the BBC showed one of the main London railway stations yesterday with hundreds of people taking trains out of London against the rules, most frustrating was that they also showed a Policeman wondering amongst the crowds making no attempt to check whether their exit from London met the criteria to be classed as legal :confused:

My stepson lives in east London (Bow) and has begrudgingly accepted that his plans for a Christmas lunch with 5 friends will have to be cancelled, and he needs to buy some food to cook himself!
 
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Uwe

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With regard pushing vaccines to make a profit, the Oxford University/Astra Zeneca is being provided at cost price AstraZeneca promises virus vaccine at cost price worldwide (medicalxpress.com)
The price is around 2.50 euros ($3) per dose.
Production is ramping up, there are already 50 million doses of active substances available
So at least $150 million down the drain if it hadn't gotten some sort of approval, but probably more:
We are committed to these three billion doses at cost price for 2021.
What financial commitments has Astra Zeneca already made?

Selling it at cost beats the heck out of taking a 9-figure loss, no?

That said, if I had to take one, I'd prefer the Astra Zeneca vaccine; it uses time-tested adenovirus vector rather than the experimental mRNA parlor trick used by Pfizer and Moderna.

-Uwe-
 
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So at least $150 million down the drain if it hadn't gotten some sort of approval, but probably more:

What financial commitments has Astra Zeneca already made?

Selling it at cost beats the heck out of taking a 9-figure loss, no?

Uwe: Not sure about you, but my philosophy (as an avid believer in economic theory and also as a practicing capitalist) is that there is nothing wrong with "venture risk" and opportunity investment - and it applies in abundance to the vaccine industry. It's the stuff of the western world and it is even adopted in a weird way by so-called Communist regime in China!!

I would like to think that the impetus for a vaccine was driven by higher ideals - but I'm not so naive. The opportunity for profits in the race for a COVID vaccines was inevitable; it was reasonable and it was without question the principal driver in the delivery speed of the solution!

I really don't understand what "cost based prices" mean when applied to vaccine doses; I've absolutely no doubt that it doesn't mean what most folk believe that it means!! My suspicion (hope?) is that it would include a (reasonable?) margin for the cost of the risks incurred in the development of the vaccine and it would also include a rate of return on funds invested in the exercise. No one outside the inner sanctum will actually see what the vaccine manufacturers have included in their "costs" - but there can be no doubt that it will be a very, very, fulsome list of charges!!

As for the negitiating environment for the "cost price" of each dose as accepted by various Governments - it must have been a win-win situation where the vaccine manufacturer got both wins (kinda-like buying house insurance when your house was on fire)! I suspect that the various Governments were more interested in quick implementation than in settling on an efficient "cost price" per dose!!

That said, if I had to take one, I'd prefer the Astra Zeneca vaccine; .........

Interesting sentence construction!! :confused:
 
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Uwe

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there is nothing wrong with "venture risk" and opportunity investment - and it applies to the vaccine industry.
I agree, there is nothing wrong with it, unless/until the companies that took the venture risk get government regulatory agencies to suppress other treatments that could have saved many lives by now, and that's exactly what seems to have happened here. Again, in the USA, there can be no thing as an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an effective alternative treatment, and I believe there the situation in the UK is similar. If there was an effective alternative treatment available, then these vaccines would have to go through the normal regulatory approval process rather than getting an EUA, and that would take several more years, meaning there would be no return on their investments until then (if ever).

Interesting sentence construction!!
Is there some part of what I wrote that lacks clarity?

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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As HMC says the vast majority accept the need for these extra restrictions, but there is a small minority that for personal reasons are ignoring them - the BBC showed one of the main London railway stations yesterday with hundreds of people taking trains out of London against the rules, most frustrating was that they also showed a Policeman wondering amongst the crowds making no attempt to check whether their exit from London met the criteria to be classed as legal :confused:

My stepson lives in east London (Bow) and has begrudgingly accepted that his plans for a Christmas lunch with 5 friends will have to be cancelled, and he needs to buy some food to cook himself!
Don,
Living in a UK Tier 4 area ( highest restrictions), I can tell you that the vast majority of people accept the restrictions as a necessary evil to buy us some time to slow the spread and get the vaccine out. Most people I speak to were choosing to restrict activity over Christmas even before the stricter rules came in.
With regard pushing vaccines to make a profit, the Oxford University/Astra Zeneca is being provided at cost price AstraZeneca promises virus vaccine at cost price worldwide (medicalxpress.com)
Regards HMC
Dave/HMC: thanks for the response - In an untimely twist-of-fate a couple of days ago, a "COVID hot spot" emerged in the northern beaches of Sydney which stopped our double donut days. This has meant that the State government has imposed fairly severe restrictions to the Greater Sydney region over Christmas and the State borders are now closed to anyone wanting to travel in, or out of New South Wales.
The new normal - I guess

Don
 
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Uwe

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Oh, and here's another thing that nobody seems to want to talk about:

More than six months ago during the first half of June, the WHO said, "
Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is ‘very rare’. But they walked that back very quickly without citing any evidence to the contrary.

Now about a month ago, Nature published a study out of Wuhan, China where 93% of the city's population was tested. Hundreds of asymptomatic cases were identified and their contacts were tested. Guess what was found?
there was no evidence of transmission from asymptomatic positive persons to traced close contacts.
But somehow, this has not made the news. Why?

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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Is there some part of what I wrote that lacks clarity?
hmm...... I was hesitant to ask because I sensed that your wording was deliberately chosen to obfuscate what you might reasonably consider to be a private matter -but I wondered what your view was about taking the vaccine and what you meant by "had to take one [a vaccine]"?

Do you think that the US administration will enforce such a requirement either by law, or by a surrogate like restricting access to other services unless citizens are inoculated?

Don
 
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Uwe

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Do you think that the US administration will enforce such a requirement either by law, or by a surrogate like restricting access to other services unless citizens are inoculated?
Well....

Now this doesn't affect me personally because my employer will certainly not require his employees to take a vaccine they don't feel comfortable with. I'm sure he will leave it entirely up to them as individuals to decide whether they wish to be Versuchskanninchen or not.

However, there are many millions of people whose employers will not be mindful of their employees' wishes as mine is. :)

-Uwe-
 
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