Vehicle Diagnostic Protection SFD

[Uwe]

From what I hear, the American manufacturers are doing the same as VAG.

The SAE is actually recommending such things and have published some guidance for it:

J3061_201601: Cybersecurity Guidebook for Cyber-Physical Vehicle Systems - SAE International

This recommended practice provides guidance on vehicle Cybersecurity and was created based off of, and expanded on from, existing practices which are being implemented or reported in industry, government and conference papers. The best practices are intended to be flexible, pragmatic, and adaptable

www.sae.org

-Uwe-

 

[DV52]

@Bruce: I'm not that familiar with America's "Right to Repair" movement - but it sounds very much like a good thing to have. However, unless I've misunderstood this debate (quite likely), I'm not sure how SFD is related.

Here in the land down under, VW Australia has refused to grant independent workshops access to facilities like FAZIT. This means that dealers have a virtual monopoly on related work - and Australian car owners can only use dealers accordingly.

As I understand, these restriction do not apply in America. So VAG car owners in USA have a so-called "level playing field" for repairs which includes the right to seek services from a dealer, or an independent workshop or ultimately (I guess) to do the work themselves if they are prepared to set-up the required infrastructure. I assume that your Right-to-Repair is not so much about the cost to repair, but rather it's about the right of access to the information and the facilities (like VAG servers) to be able to repair

But for the matter of SFD- VAG is not imposing a restriction on access to information/facility, As I understand, anyone who wants access to SFD encrusted modules can have this access - they simply need to qualify (on the same footing) to get a GEKO account and they need a digital link to VAG servers to get the tokens. Again, the question of the cost of access is not in debate here (as long as the cost is the same for everyone).

What have I missed in this new world order - or is America's right-to-repair movement about the proletariat getting cheap car repairs?

Don

 

[Bruce]

Right to Repair is as you say... making things available and doing so at a "reasonable" price. That's what the movement was all about. Our aftermarket shops are as important as our dealer shops. They should be - there are almost as many aftermarket shops as there drivers... but that is another issue.

So the SFD is like CP and the Immo - got to have the dealer software and a license to use it.

Do I understand correctly that one has to pay to obtain the SFD word? That would be a difference. Right now, if you jump through the hoops of fire, buy a J2534 pass through device, pay for your annual subscription, you get access to ODIS online. Did I understand correctly that for each SFD protected module, one must buy that word? That would seem wrong given that one has paid the price for access.

The shops must pay additional for access to the erWin information.

It's not about getting cheap repairs. It is about the fact that 60+% of all repair is done by independent shops. That is big business and the parts dealers, supplies dealers, the governments all want to see these shops prevail and keep thriving. They are typically owned by a guy living in a community and wanting to help people out. They will be found rubbing elbows with their customers around town - shopping in the local stores and such.

Dealers are a big business and they realize they are not making squat on selling cars. They need to make money in their service and collision bays. They have become a big machine, cranking cars through the repair mill... and most of the time they satisfy their customers. Yet customers are fiercely independent in the main and many do not like the dealer (which they label the stealer) - they see the dealer charging more - and they are correct - about 33% more than the independent for the same work. So, the car owners want to take their car where they want to go for service. That is what forced Right to Repair - a Massachusetts voter referendum stating the the car owner has the right to have their car serviced at a place of their choosing; that place having equal access to the tools, information and equipment dealer techs use at a comparable price.

 

[stefdds]

I'm not sure what the J2534 pass through device costs ; but here is a list of the costs and requirements to apply for ODIS Here (see post #12).

 

[Bruce]

J2534 genuine tool was running $2000 to $3000 USD last I checked.. For VAG, the DrewTech products were approved. I believe there are two others but cannot remember their names. I believe they are listed on the VAG site somewhere.

 

[Uwe]

I believe there are two others but cannot remember their names.

I believe this is VAG's preferred one:

PassThru+ XS 2G & SAE J2534 protocol

PassThru+ XS 2G is the only device fully compliant to J2534-1 & J2534-2. Recommended and tested by major OEM's, the PassThru+ XS 2G device is a VCI (Vehicl...

www.ime-actia.de

-Uwe-

 

[RGH0]

Yes the issue is I have 2 cars I need to maintain not 10,000 and I want reasonable access to the data and computer tools provided by VW or alternates such as Ross-Tech needed to maintain my 2 cars. Right to repair should give me to access for my 2 cars on the same basis per car as a dealer for 10,000 cars. Without VW trying to stop it !!!!!

 

[RGH0]

Its not just VW. Ford keep the casting design details of their 70 year old "Kent" blocks design used in the Lotus twincam racing engines that I build confidential still so I have to reverse engineer the details WTF ? How many $ are they going to make out of that move??

cheers
Rohan

 

[khaledabdulaziz]

wow, that's a lot of information to take in two hours, I hope vcds keep up and not abandon us
as for other alternatives, where can I get original ODIS, and is VCP a solution for SFD ? do I need to pay subscriptions to be able to do coding, adapting, etc. to the control units having SFD when I use VCP?
can I buy SFD tokens and do those jobs using vcds ? and if yes, where to buy?
where can I get Geko account, VAG flash account, SFD tokens legally ?
I'm sorry, I know some of those questions are answered during the discussion but I figured maybe we can sum it up

 

[Uwe]

I hope vcds keep up and not abandon us

I believe that as of release 21.9, VCDS already supports SFD as well as any aftermarket product can or does at this point.

I'm sorry, I know some of those questions are answered during the discussion but I figured maybe we can sum it up

Questions about other aftermarket software is off-topic here.

As for a legal ODIS and a GeKo account, the specifics vary by market, and we have no way of knowing what those specifics are in your county.

-Uwe-

 

[khaledabdulaziz]

I believe that as of release 21.9, VCDS already supports SFD as well as any aftermarket product can or does at this point.

Questions about other aftermarket software is off-topic here.

As for a legal ODIS and a GeKo account, the specifics vary by market, and we have no way of knowing what those specifics are in your county.

-Uwe-

Thanks, so does Ross-tech sells those tokens? Or is it just a code presented by Ross-tech for free? Or is it in and out and nothing required?

 

[Uwe]

does Ross-tech sells those tokens?

No. We cannot sell or otherwise provide them.

Our download page states the following in the "Release Notes" section:

This release of VCDS does have support for unlocking SFD-protected modules using "off-line" tokens generated by VAG's servers, but Ross-Tech cannot supply such tokens.

-Uwe-

 

[autocomsoft]

where can I get Geko account, VAG flash account, SFD tokens legally ?

Contact VW importer for Your country. He will give You access to Dealer portal and make GeKo account. Than he will connect SFD application with Your dealer portal and than You can generate tokens. For example in Czech Repubic it is completely for free. Only a bit more byrocracy..

 

[Uwe]

For example in Czech Repubic

Czech Republic is part of the EU. Although I normally have a pretty dim view of the bureaucrats in Brussels and all their ridiculous regulations, they do have regulation pertaining to automotive repairs that requires car manufacturers to grant this kind of access to independent workshops.

The same is not necessarily true outside of the EU. For example, I have heard that in Australia, the importer will not give anyone except official dealers this kind of access. I have no idea what the situation is like in Israel.

-Uwe-

 

[khaledabdulaziz]

so today I contacted VW Israel and they said (and I'm quoting): "I'm not familiar of the details you asking me about. I will check the details and let you know".
maybe VW Israel are too dumb to know about it, I contacted a friend of mine who lives in Germany about the Geko account and how easy it could be to make one in Germany.
if some of Geko functions are free then I'm flying to Germany.

 

[downtime]

Contact VW importer for Your country. He will give You access to Dealer portal and make GeKo account. Than he will connect SFD application with Your dealer portal and than You can generate tokens. For example in Czech Repubic it is completely for free. Only a bit more byrocracy..

Or just buy the access and tokens from those online sellers. Plenty available, just google.

 

[Crasher]

It is called Block Exemption Regulation, I hope Brexit does not land us in the same state as Australia.

 

[Crasher]

if some of Geko functions are free then I'm flying to Germany.

ODIS functions, free!!!

 

[khaledabdulaziz]

ODIS functions, free!!!

wait a minute?! I can do ecu adaption using ODIS without Geko account?
yesterday i had a skoda yeti 2009 and i needed online help to do it cos he has a Geko
how i might do it without Geko? i mean of this car for example

 

[downtime]

wait a minute?! I can do ecu adaption using ODIS without Geko account?
yesterday i had a skoda yeti 2009 and i needed online help to do it cos he has a Geko
how i might do it without Geko? i mean of this car for example

You can't. IMMO and CP both need online access for adaptation