Vehicle Diagnostic Protection SFD

[stefdds]

Yet another example of Right to Repair:

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[Uwe]

^^^ Nice "farmer fix" on that battery.

-Uwe-

 

[Eric]

Well, if VAG is willing to provide the tokens, VCDS can do it...

 

[DV52]

@Eric - nice graphic!! Your ability to do that (and your opposable thumbs) is what separates you from the rest of us mere mortals- I'm envious!!

 

[stefdds]

Regarding post (notice post number 1,2,3 ! ) #123, FIRE !!!

 

[massimo23]

Did my first Sfd Unlock for the (17) dashboard on my Golf 8 with Vcds.. so easy to use, Thanks Rosstech

 

[stefdds]

Congratulations! Where did you get the Token? Did you have to pay for it ? Thanks for the update!!

 

[stefdds]

OK, Thank you..... I'm really glad (as well as many, many others to hear its working out!

 

[Uwe]

I know Vagupdate sell tokens…

We've had no luck at all with them.

-Uwe-

 

[massimo23]

I paid for an sfd token from them but after waiting 7-8 hours for a reply i emailed them and demanded a refund which they did..
Best to stay away from vagupdate then…

 

[DV52]

^^^ This is utter madness!!

Do businesses like vagupdate (and others named earlier in this thread) have a special arrangement with the mother-ship to sell these SFD TOKENs, or are they simply pimping their GEKO accounts to third party buyers (in breach of thier contracts with VAG)?

The justification for the emergence of this new business opportunity simply doesn't make sense given the scant documentation about SFD from VAG that is in the public domain.

Put bluntly - what is the point of VAG designing this new protection protocol, then investing money to build the required infrastructure - only to allow the entire objective of SFD to be blown-away by the anonymity of third-party token pimping?

Where is VAG's legal arm? What has happened to the fabled zero-tolerance for breaches of VAG's proprietary rights?

Complete lunacy- IMHO!

Don

 

[Bruce]

Complete lunacy- IMHO!

Welcome to the new world order...

 

[RGH0]

Don't worry SFD will be hacked or worked around in time.... if the incentives are big enough or the security poor enough..... both of which are strong possibilities

 

[DV52]

Don't worry SFD will be hacked or worked around in time.... if the incentives are big enough or the security poor enough..... both of which are strong possibilities

@RGH0: G'day cobber!! Fear not, I have no doubt that the hack community will/are turning their attention to cracking SFD protocols.

However, there is a sublime irony in the suggestion that VCDS users should rely on either these solutions, or on those businesses that are pimping TOKENs in contravention of their GEKO licenses.

That irony goes to the very heart of our value-set: in exactly the same way that ALL of us in this forum have made the purchasing decision not to prostitute our morals/principles/virtues/integrity (add whatever other word that suits) for the sake of saving a few dollars by supporting IP theft - so we face the same problem with these "unofficial" methods of dealing with SFD.

Yes, I've absolutely no doubt that each of us can create a set of justifications why SFD should be attacked in this fashion - but these arguments are just as delusional and self serving as the justifications for buying pirated cables (IMHO, of course).

Admittedly, this is just my personal philosophy - but it's not our good deeds that defines us; the truth is that each of us is only ever as honorable as our worse decision (and that includes purchasing decisions!!).

In any event, at a cost of $40 (USD?) every time I want to access a SFD module to make a change - I don't expect to be confronted with the moral dilemma too often

Don

Welcome to the new world order...

@Bruce: I don't like "the new world order" (it rankors)!!!

 

[RGH0]

@RGH0: G'day cobber!! Fear not, I have no doubt that the hack community will/are turning their attention to cracking SFD protocols.

However, there is a sublime irony in the suggestion that VCDS users should rely on either these solutions, or on those businesses that are pimping TOKENs in contravention of their GEKO licenses.

That irony goes to the very heart of our value-set: in exactly the same way that ALL of us in this forum have made the purchasing decision not to prostitute our morals/principles/virtues/integrity (add whatever other word that suits) for the sake of saving a few dollars by supporting IP theft - so we face the same problem with these "unofficial" methods of dealing with SFD.

Yes, I've absolutely no doubt that each of us can create a set of justifications why SFD should be attacked in this fashion - but these arguments are just as delusional and self serving as the justifications for buying pirated cables (IMHO, of course).

Admittedly, this is just my personal philosophy - but it's not our good deeds that defines us; the truth is that each of us is only ever as honorable as our worse decision (and that includes purchasing decisions!!).

In any event, at a cost of $40 (USD?) every time I want to access a SFD module to make a change - I don't expect to be confronted with the moral dilemma too often

Don


@Bruce: I don't like "the new world order" (it rankors)!!!

Yes the whole "right to repair" area is a morale minefield and you need to make your personal choice on where to draw the line.

VCDS is a reverse engineering of the original VW system to get around the high charges and poor service given by VW in their dealers workshops. The user support of VCDS is a key feature versus what VW provides via its dealers

The chinese clones of VCDS are a poor reverse engineering copy of the VCDS system with no user support but cheaper still

VW SFD is an attempt to stop people like Ross-Tech from providing the current service they do and to force people back to the dealers to improve dealer income. Ross-Tech reverse engineered the original VW system is their a moral issue reverse engineering ( "hacking") the new system especially given the more explicit right to repair laws that exist these days ?

cheers
Rohan

 

[stefdds]

Yes the whole "right to repair" area is a morale minefield and you need to make your personal choice on where to draw the line.

I don't believe what RT is doing is a morale issue, from what I understand they are reading and accessing what is already present (like reading a purchased book); a "open door" so to speak , then taking that book and reading its contents aloud. Hacking implies a unwelcome or forceful entry. That is not the case with RT, because if it were you can bet the legal department at vw/audi USA would be doing something about it. Like 20 plus years ago.

Cloning (in this country) is stealing intellectual property or another's work ; making a illegal copy of VCDS for example. That is a morale issue.

Its called competition - in the market place - and RT decided to compete exposing a real void in the oem/dealer model and has become successful in their own (Legal) way: providing a public service that People what to buy! THAT is what the USA is all about (free enterprise) As stated above (welcome), The manufacturers (oem's) and the Dealers are trying to "lock out" the DIY'er and others and does not wish to compete, they would rather be arrogant and hold the public hostage in their own "take it or leave it" way. Blocking or preventing competition IS a morale issue. No one told them to build dealerships two and three times the size necessary to sell vehicles; that is their choice. Now they find themselves with empty or poor preforming service bays ; charging a labor rate double ,or more, then the area average will have that effect!

Monopolizing a segment of the market place is a moral issue ; (in this country, its against the law). And that is what the oem's and others are attempting to do.

 

[RGH0]

One mans freedom fighter ( Ross-Tech perspective) is another mans terrorist (VW perspective). So VW takes steps to limit the freedom fighters ability to take money from its dealers. From the VW perspective it is a morale issue if not from yours.

Like I say. Its a long, grey and slippery slope from paying a fortune to get a wrong analysis and so called fix based on replacing whole component assemblies as done by VW to hacking SFD at the other end. Like I say where you personally draw the line is a morale issue and up to you, I will make my own morale judgement and not try to say what is right for others. I think Ross-Tech have done a great job so far in drawing the line appropriately in what VCDS can do and not do IMHO, but VW keep challenging them to move the line drawn to favour VW and its dealers more.

You see this same VW behaviour in mechanical areas also where they have stopped listing individual component spare part details on assemblies and require you to buy the complete assembly. I draw my own conclusions on that and act appropriately in my own morale judgement and dont buy VW assemblies but research and find the components made but others for VW

cheers
Rohan

 

[Bruce]

Perhaps I am naive but I don't feel the SFD move is about willfully locking those that want to work on the vehicles out. I think if you really examine the motives, you will find that VAG fears lawsuits raining on them when mods are made, circumventing the protections the designers deemed necessary to protect the operators of the vehicle, collisions occur and lawyers begin the game. VAG needs/wants to limit their liability from such lawsuits they anticipate may occur.

No, I don't like it but in this litigious new world order, what would you do to protect your investment and your stock holders? You'd lock down as much as you can get away with and then you would let the courts decide what has to be locked and what can be left open. I believe we are at the beginning of that process. "Right to Repair" is part of the reconciliation.

Self-preservation; forcing others to choose which are the important things to be locked; these are the avenues I see us traveling right now. It's going on in many different machine product lines not just autos. As you can see in my pic I am interested in farm machines. It is going on there also.

 

[stefdds]

I hear you on that one Bruce, (John Deere) ; However, in today's digital age, I'm sure VW / Audi could place on the software in question a "tamper file" which would show any changes made . Then in court or negotiations the manufacturer could simply show that digital record and not be completely responsible for the event in question.

I think, if the European auto makers want to do business in this country (USA), then they must accept our laws (right to repair) ; if they feel otherwise or feel they have to much liability exposure, then they will need to make other arrangements. I believe "they" want it Both ways: their cultural mores in another market / country! "Diesel gate" is / was pure fiscal arrogance and SFD IMO has the same vibe.

They have no problem "looking the other way" when it suits their needs! Every business has financial exposure ( and most of us have Insurance for those unforeseen occurrences) ; if they don't want to accept that fact, then don't offer those options (autonomous driving etc.).

BTW, Good Morning!

 

[Bruce]

From what I hear, the American manufacturers are doing the same as VAG. So this is an industry wide problem.

I don't have the answers but I do not believe it is all wrapped up in VAG making money. I am reasonably sure the bean counters are involved but am not yet convinced they do this exclusively to rip money from their customers and their service providers.