People renting VCDS

   #21  

D-Dub

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when vehicles (or private space ships) become nuclear powered, not only will you need DOE certified equipment, but you may even need a DOE certification just to open the hood.
 
   #22  

Jack@European_Parts

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Nope but I have had some conversations with a prosecutor on someone else's behalf about VCDS or blue box logs, further letting them know I was prepared to be sworn in to validate the data that contradicted an enforcement official & that was clearly lying and writing many people unlawfully abusing his power.

Another time I brought a laptop with digital photo's to show a sign on road was unobservable to me and it was quickly dismissed, but everyone else apparently paid a fine by plea deal.

See one thing about people is they are lazy especially enforcement, they focus on one task to keep it easy for repetition and than lay the traps, just like lawyers that specialize with templates or any other job hence why legal zoom was possible or any franchise, assembly line etc.?
While it can be considered a creative way of pumping shit out in volume, I'd much rather surround myself with a think tank like here with you guys.

Some arguments are not worth the time I have found but often I get tangled with my principles on a matter to make a stand & I think this is the RT approach to avoid such confrontations because it's not worth the fight for the cost and not just monetarily but the stress.
 
   #23  

myounus

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The pertinent question thus remains and I believe Don has quote elegantly covered, why isn't the EEPROM facility made available? I agree with Don that you can brick a car with VCDS, you can cause all sorts of problems like any kid playing around with adults equipment. Enthusiasts (which we all are) is the lifeblood of any organisation. Who wants to be forced to pay VAG hundreds of dollars for new modules when you can for example get one from a crashed Skoda and use it in your Seat, flashed and parameterised for a tenth of the price.

I am already not in favour of paying for access to flash files and diagrams but we are being pushed further and further towards ODIS. Life is hard enough with SWAP, FEC's and CP.
 
   #24  

rhinopower

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Lets start getting the basics right like label files being complete and populated before worrying about eeprom programming
 
   #25  

DV52

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^^^^I think that someone needs to re-title this thread - perhaps "Miscellaneous complaints"? :)

Don
 
   #26  

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Yes the thread title certainly does not fit any longer.

Do those posting here think that Ross-Tech has not weighed these matters?

If we allow the ability to flash modules, where would the flash originate? That is, who owns the flash you want to move from a Skoda module, dropping it into a different VAG vehicle? The courts will eventually brought into that question. Is the firmware in a vehicle owned by the company that created the module, the car manufacturer who established the design standard and the requirement, or the end user who owns the car? No matter, when you take it from a crash car, who owns that program? Is the content of a control public? Is the program running a home computer free for anyone to take and move and do with it as they want?

Do you think that VAG would tolerate our offering their IP to the world? You do realize that VCDS is the most installed diagnostic tool in the world? Yes, I am including clone installations... Do you think for one minute VAG would sit still for us distributing their flashes? Their PIN codes? Playing games with Component Protection?

Several have suggested that the knowledge of modifying program values in an EEPROM is something we should offer. If you are one of those, could you sleep at night knowing that your tool provided the means for cars to be easily stolen? For laws to be easily circumvented? Who would be held responsible? With tech toys, it's unclear. Is it not an anticipatable misuse of a product? Ever hear of the lawn mower used as a hedge trimmer? The designers should have known is what the court said.

There seems to be a suggestion in this thread that Ross-Tech should loose it's old school values and embrace the values of competitors who seem to not care whether they are stealing other's work. "Go ahead and take the work of VAG and use it for your profit" seems to be what some might say. "Go steal their data so we can benefit and have what we want. If you do that, we could have complete label files. We could have flashes. We could have wiring diagrams and procedures all over your website."

Sure - and Uwe will get striped or bright colored pajamas with 3 free meals a day and all the sex he may not want!

Look, I don't speak for Uwe. That said, I will speak to Uwe and fight any attempt to shed our old school values. If the stuff VCP and OBDeleven provide - skirting law - is needed, and you can live with that idea that they are doing things in the margins, then they are the tools to buy. If you want to do the things VCDS cannot do but do it legally/properly, pay VAG for the work they do and use their ODIS tools.

Sure, Ross-Tech would love for VAG to enable us to be equal to their ODIS tool by opening the access to their information. But why would VAG want to do that? They are in business to make profit selling and maintaining autos. If they enabled others with a complete open book, how would they then stay in business and how would they keep their tech edge over their competitors?

As we have already discussed, Ross-Tech had to close our open book. VAG and Ross-Tech are not different in that regard.

For 20 years, Uwe has had to make choices. What should VAG-COM/VCDS support? He decided it must not allow people to steal cars. It must not use any information direct from VAG that is not obtainable through public means or experimentation. It must not use or abuse any software or hardware product that can be deemed to be the intellectual property of VAG. Use of the tool should not allow a user to circumvent established law in any country and Ross-Tech will have no part in documenting the means to circumvent law should the tool provide a means. To me, these are pretty simple and clear values. Asking Ross-Tech to be like VCP or OBDeleven is the equivalent of asking Uwe to abandon his honor and his integrity. You ask him to not be Uwe Ross.

A prediction: VCP and OBDeleven will be slapped for their theft of VAG IP. If my information is correct, VCP recently got slapped by VAG for their use of VAG owned property... Changes were made. OBDeleven? They too will get slapped. VAG moves slow but moves with tremendous power. One should be careful when toying with the largest auto manufacturer in the world. They have lots of lawyers on staff who need to justify their existence.

Any of you familiar with AutoLogic? Do you know why they no longer sell the Blue Box? Do you know why they had to change their entire business model and why they ended up being sold? Yep, they were caught distributing flashes through their tools. They ended up in court with Volvo. VAG settled with them out of court. They no longer have their own VAG tool. They run ODIS through their platform.

We hear what you want. I do not see the ethical path to providing such.
 
   #27  

DV52

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Bruce: thanks for sharing your thoughts - which are as always, erudite and well argued.

Clearly this debate has stirred-up deep seated feelings that none of us had intended and I don't seek to extend what has become a difficult topic

However, being "one of those" protagonists for change - I feel the need to make a final remark as endorsement for my (and I'm sure, other like-minded colleague's) value-set in suggesting the move to EEPROM capabilities.

With the greatest respect - the overt link that is made in your response between the suggestion for EEPROM facilities and the dubious morals of those of us that support this suggestion is well.......... at best entirely inappropriate and at worst extremely atypical for someone who has demonstrated in his past writings to be a fair minded person.

I've absolutely no doubt that a major issue for Ross-Tech is straddling the VAG tight-rope between legitimate IP and copyright theft but to label those of us that support the counter view as being motivated by the dark-side is just so wrong (and I suspect that you will agree)!!


Now - let's talk about something way more interesting - perhaps the meaning of life (and everything)?

Don
 
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   #28  

Jack@European_Parts

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The only thing I can think is this and since no one wants 100 different interfaces right & with thoughts of adaptions and parameterization in mind?

Bruce don't you think Uwe & RT as a whole, should just consider adding a PASS-THRU interface with drivers to function?
RT can sell it as a plugin & support it for a fee & that comports with SVM/GeKo access & specifically provided that the user gets a username and password from VAG or NASTF credentials etc. or files from VAG/ERWIN or authorized third party database?
This way VCDS could be broadened and not break any laws using the regulations and laws in the USA to get access to what customers crave, "functionality" not electrolytes!
 
   #29  

D-Dub

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A hammer can be used for murder, as well as hammering nails.

Craftsman doesn't get sued or arrested (or maybe they do?) when someone uses their hammer to do something illegal?

John Wick can kill people with a pencil, should kids be allowed to continue to use them?

Just because a tool can be used to modify eeprom or other parameterizing(sp?) functions, might be used for illegal purposes, doesn't mean that functionality isn't desirable or usable for legal operations.

Torrents get a bad rap due to pirating etc.

RAR/ZIP files can be used to pirate too, but those tools don't quite have the same bad wrap.

Not even gonna go into firearm comparisons.

The examples are endless, but the point is the same.

The responsibility is on the user.

Now, that does not mean I suggest providing firmware files or other copyrighted material through your product.

But as a suggestion, I'm sure there are ways to implement functionality, while still providing you control over its use, such as 'cloud' authentication and logging for any legally 'grey' or risky functions.

And of course, as owner(s) you are well within your rights to refuse to support anything you don't want to within your product, to the loss of potential customers to other products/services (be they other 3rd parties or VAG themselves).

Please understand, I am not really trying to stir the pot, but the stance of not supporting something, just because it may be used for non-legal purposes, is just about as slippery slope as it comes.
 
   #30  

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.But as a suggestion, I'm sure there are ways to implement functionality, while still providing you control over its use, such as 'cloud' authentication and logging for any legally 'grey' or risky functions.
If VAG says NO,-across the board then we are back to the drawing board. I think that's what Bruce was hinting at
 
   #31  

jyoung8607

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A hammer can be used for murder, as well as hammering nails.

...

The examples are endless, but the point is the same.

The responsibility is on the user.
Except when it isn't, especially when the firmware owners would clearly rather third-party diagnostic vendors avoid that sort of thing, and they budget more for their legal department in a week than Ross-Tech has global revenue in a year.

Bruce don't you think Uwe & RT as a whole, should just consider adding a PASS-THRU interface with drivers to function?
RT can sell it as a plugin & support it for a fee & that comports with SVM/GeKo access & specifically provided that the user gets a username and password from VAG or NASTF credentials etc. or files from VAG/ERWIN or authorized third party database?
This way VCDS could be broadened and not break any laws using the regulations and laws in the USA to get access to what customers crave, "functionality" not electrolytes!
I may have shared some thoughts on this topic at one point or another which I will not belabor here, other than to say +1. :)
 
   #32  

myounus

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The only thing I can think is this and since no one wants 100 different interfaces right & with thoughts of adaptions and parameterization in mind?

Bruce don't you think Uwe & RT as a whole, should just consider adding a PASS-THRU interface with drivers to function?
RT can sell it as a plugin & support it for a fee & that comports with SVM/GeKo access & specifically provided that the user gets a username and password from VAG or NASTF credentials etc. or files from VAG/ERWIN or authorized third party database?
This way VCDS could be broadened and not break any laws using the regulations and laws in the USA to get access to what customers crave, "functionality" not electrolytes!
Now someone's talking my langauge :)
1 cable that does it all.
 
   #33  

NitrousOxide

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comports with SVM/GeKo access & specifically provided that the user gets a username and password from VAG or NASTF credentials etc. or files from VAG/ERWIN or authorized third party database?
This sounds like progress, but VAG would have an issue with such use of their IP. Also, I can imagine the dealerships complaining already about lost revenue and warranty claims when DIYers make undocumented changes, then bring the vehicles in for goodwill claims.
 
   #34  

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With the greatest respect - the overt link that is made in your response between the suggestion for EEPROM facilities and the dubious morals of those of us that support this suggestion is well.......... at best entirely inappropriate and at worst extremely atypical for someone who has demonstrated in his past writings to be a fair minded person.

I've absolutely no doubt that a major issue for Ross-Tech is straddling the VAG tight-rope between legitimate IP and copyright theft but to label those of us that support the counter view as being motivated by the dark-side is just so wrong (and I suspect that you will agree)!!
You are correct Don. There are times when the passion/emotion of response causes one to choose their words poorly. I accept the criticism that my choice of words was inappropriate. My apology to all for that choice.
 
   #35  

Bruce

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Bruce don't you think Uwe & RT as a whole, should just consider adding a PASS-THRU interface with drivers to function?
RT can sell it as a plugin & support it for a fee & that comports with SVM/GeKo access & specifically provided that the user gets a username and password from VAG or NASTF credentials etc. or files from VAG/ERWIN or authorized third party database?
This way VCDS could be broadened and not break any laws using the regulations and laws in the USA to get access to what customers crave, "functionality" not electrolytes!
Asked for it. Said J2534 capability would help our product Jack. Then our customers could use ODIS online to do the things they cannot now do.

For reasons outside this discussion, the decision was made not to add J2534 pass through capability.
 
   #36  

Jack@European_Parts

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This sounds like progress, but VAG would have an issue with such use of their IP. Also, I can imagine the dealerships complaining already about lost revenue and warranty claims when DIYers make undocumented changes, then bring the vehicles in for goodwill claims.


Ah no because Pass-Thru only permits authorized factory functions when using the OEM available tool.

VCDS isn't used just an alleged supported RT TBD hardware cable EDIC that comports with VAG.
 
   #37  

Bruce

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This sounds like progress, but VAG would have an issue with such use of their IP. Also, I can imagine the dealerships complaining already about lost revenue and warranty claims when DIYers make undocumented changes, then bring the vehicles in for goodwill claims.
I don't think they will have an issue provided all work is done through their interface - ODIS online. ODIS will not give all that is suggested here. Some of the tweaks people desire will not be supported by their tool. You would be correct that they will not be pleased with those EEPROM mods...
 
   #38  

Jack@European_Parts

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Asked for it. Said J2534 capability would help our product Jack. Then our customers could use ODIS online to do the things they cannot now do.

For reasons outside this discussion, the decision was made not to add J2534 pass through capability.
I understand that, but but but if a shop has to do work, they have to buy the tool whether from you or another supplier.
My Actia XS was like $1500 USD way back when so in comparison to other PASS THRU interfaces it would seem to me there is room to save people money and make money.
 
   #39  

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Asked for it. Said J2534 capability would help our product Jack. Then our customers could use ODIS online to do the things they cannot now do.

For reasons outside this discussion, the decision was made not to add J2534 pass through capability.
At that time, yes. However, that could change at some point in the future.

-Uwe-
 
   #40  

Jack@European_Parts

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At that time, yes. However, that could change at some point in the future.

-Uwe-
This is what I love about you Uwe, you are with a valid moral compass of integrity, that stands up for your convictions to stand up to or for what you think is right and smart enough to avoid an unwinnable fight , most of all you are "open minded"! :thumbs:

I'm still trying to learn to not hit the bees nest & because of my past abuse endured. It " IS " what in some cases will make me consider a fall on ones sword to protect someone or something I care about & " IF " I have too & to bring light to Justice & sometimes Justice is not cut like I'd expect.

Just what are IF and IS?




01001000,0x01101001,0x01100100,0x01100100,0x011001 01,0x01101110,0x00100000,0x01001101,0x01100101,0x0 1110011,0x01110011,0x01100001,0x01100111,0x0110010 1,0x01110011,0x00100000,0x01010010,0x01100101,0x01 110011,0x01101001,0x01100100,0x01100101,0x00100000 ,0x01101001,0x01101110,0x00100000,0x01010110,0x011 01001,0x01100100,0x01100101,0x01101111
 
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