Can the patient be saved ? FOD identification help please B8 A4 2.0 TFSI

   #21  

Jack@European_Parts

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Thinking out loud here: I wonder if part of the problem is the very light-weight oils, and/or combined with the very long (10,000 miles!) oil change intervals that VW specifies these days?

A reciprocating piston engine is not a sewing machine, yet they call for ever-thinner oils. I had the oil changed on a 2018 Tiguan at the dealer about a month ago and they used 0w20! I believe the primary reason they do this is so they can get incrementally better fuel economy numbers out of the EPA tests.

-Uwe-

I made some very compelling tests over last 20 years and I described them in Marin's oil thread I thought?

The oil is not the only problem, it is a design problem too, right?

Fuel pumps being given access to leak internally and blow by gasses or inadequate valve/chain guide friction surfaces being sealed, scraped or bathed in oil by gallery channels & being permitted to mix as a result of thin oil already & to in spirit prevent turbo charger coking the sump, are what manifest this and the OEM's are fully aware of it?

Not just thin oil for friction caused by MPG loss.

When observation of 1.8T or early TDI came in, two things failed, heads/cams due to adjuster choice location and turbo chargers. Most low ends were still good even though coking was heavy and even with a plugged sump screen.

Bifurcation of the sump from fuel pumps and turbo chargers makes these engines last much longer on slightly heavier non synthetic oil & due to adhesion quality of traditional type oil viscosities.
 
   #22  

BigJetTech

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Not sure if this will show up correctly .. :banghead::facepalm:
Code:
Saturday	26	October	2019	17:46:02:58603-VCID:79BA2A2AF83DB987E0-802C	VCDS Version: Release 19.6.2 (x64)	Data version: 20190930 DS308.0							
8K2 907 115 AL	ADVMB	2.0l R4/4V TF H15 0001											
		G003	F0	G017	F0	G028	F0	G029	F0	G030	F0	G546	F0
													
Marker	TIME	Loc. IDE00021	TIME	Loc. IDE00100	TIME	Loc. IDE00178	TIME	Loc. IDE00179	TIME	Loc. IDE00182	TIME	Loc. ENG109861	
	STAMP	Engine speed	STAMP	Engine torque	STAMP	Camshaft adjustment intake bank 1: specified value	STAMP	Camshaft adjustment intake bank 1: actual value	STAMP	Camshaft adaptation intake bank 1: phase position	STAMP	Vehicle speed	
		 /min		 Nm				 °		 °		 km/h	
	0.35	2054	0.47	67.1	0.59	-23.836	0.03	-24.32	0.13	-4.02	0.24	97	
	1.02	2058	1.13	67.5	1.25	-23.781	0.72	-24.102	0.8	-4.02	0.91	97.03	
	1.71	2054	1.8	66.5	1.92	-23.82	1.36	-23.992	1.48	-4.02	1.58	97.05	
	2.35	2054	2.48	69.8	2.59	-24.344	2.03	-23.484	2.13	-4.02	2.24	97.06	
	3.02	2057	3.13	75.3	3.25	-25.563	2.72	-24.258	2.8	-4.02	2.91	97.12	
	3.71	2065	3.8	79.9	3.92	-25.539	3.37	-25.375	3.48	-4.02	3.58	97.26	
	4.35	2063	4.47	78.2	4.59	-25.609	4.03	-25.555	4.13	-4.02	4.24	97.42	
	5.02	2067	5.13	79.1	5.25	-25.586	4.72	-25.922	4.8	-4.02	4.91	97.57	
	5.71	2071	5.8	78.9	5.92	-25.531	5.36	-25.883	5.47	-4.02	5.58	97.74	
	6.35	2075	6.47	77.7	6.59	-25.539	6.03	-25.969	6.13	-4.02	6.24	97.92	
	7.02	2076	7.13	78	7.25	-25.844	6.72	-25.641	6.8	-4.02	6.91	98.08	
	7.71	2081	7.8	80.6	7.92	-26.531	7.37	-25.75	7.48	-4.02	7.58	98.22	
	8.35	2085	8.47	87.8	8.59	-26.75	8.03	-26.609	8.13	-4.02	8.24	98.44	
	9.02	2092	9.13	87.3	9.25	-26.711	8.72	-26.125	8.8	-4.02	8.91	98.66	
	9.68	2096	9.77	87.4	9.89	-26.859	9.36	-26.563	9.48	-4.02	9.57	98.97	
	10.33	2100	10.46	89	10.56	-28	10	-26.977	10.1	-4.02	10.22	99.21	
	10.99	2115	11.1	100.7	11.23	-28	10.67	-28.125	10.77	-4.02	10.88	99.53	
	11.66	2120	11.77	133.9	11.89	-23.844	11.34	-28.055	11.46	-4.02	11.55	99.94	
	12.33	2148	12.46	169.7	12.56	-13.156	12	-23.094	12.1	-4.02	12.22	100.62	
	12.99	2152	13.11	152.9	13.23	-5.461	12.67	-12.414	12.77	-4.02	12.88	101.42	
	13.66	2169	13.77	194.9	13.89	-7.625	13.34	-4.922	13.46	-4.02	13.55	102.23	
	14.32	2200	14.43	263.6	14.54	-8.078	14	-7.289	14.12	-4.02	14.23	103.35	
	14.97	2234	15.08	300.1	15.22	-6.945	14.65	-7.953	14.76	-4.02	14.85	104.84	
	15.63	2262	15.74	306.5	15.86	-5.992	15.31	-6.391	15.41	-4.02	15.52	106.69	
	16.29	2306	16.4	317.8	16.5	-5.156	15.98	-5.273	16.08	-4.02	16.2	108.54	
	16.93	2341	17.04	169.8	17.14	-20.531	16.61	-4.438	16.73	-4.02	16.82	110.39	
	17.57	2354	17.66	135	17.78	-22.109	17.25	-18.742	17.35	-4.02	17.47	111.16	
	18.22	2364	18.33	137.6	18.47	-22.656	17.89	-22.367	17.99	-4.02	18.1	111.44	
	18.88	2366	18.99	135.6	19.11	-23.422	18.56	-22.406	18.66	-4.02	18.77	111.68	
	19.52	2371	19.63	114.8	19.75	-27.219	19.23	-23.664	19.34	-4.02	19.43	112.02	
	20.18	2375	20.29	91.8	20.4	-26.641	19.86	-27.328	19.98	-4.02	20.09	112.23	
	20.83	2375	20.96	55.8	21.06	-11.422	20.51	-26.977	20.62	-4.02	20.73	112.18	
	21.49	2359	21.6	44.7	21.73	-25.141	21.17	-13.203	21.27	-4.02	21.38	111.76	
	22.16	2365	22.27	134.1	22.39	-24.195	21.84	-25.859	21.96	-4.02	22.05	111.42	
	22.83	2374	22.96	139.4	23.04	-28	22.5	-23.813	22.6	-4.02	22.72	111.89	
	23.47	2378	23.57	91.7	23.68	-27.93	23.15	-27.398	23.26	-4.02	23.35	112.44	
	24.13	2391	24.24	128.2	24.36	-28	23.8	-27.898	23.91	-4.02	24.02	112.67	
	24.82	2393	24.93	54.2	25.05	-13.242	24.49	-27.969	24.6	-4.02	24.72	113.18	
	25.49	2394	25.6	48.8	25.73	-11.93	25.17	-12.898	25.27	-4.02	25.38	113.13	
	26.16	2388	26.27	48.1	26.39	-8.648	25.84	-11.359	25.96	-4.02	26.05	112.86	
	26.83	2385	26.96	44	27.06	-7.898	26.5	-8.063	26.6	-4.02	26.73	112.74	
	27.49	2385	27.6	49.4	27.73	-12.305	27.17	-7.883	27.27	-4.02	27.38	112.66	
	28.13	2384	28.24	49.9	28.36	-12.094	27.84	-12.414	27.96	-4.02	28.04	112.65	
	28.82	2384	28.93	49.1	29.05	-11.938	28.49	-12.125	28.6	-4.02	28.72	112.67	
	29.49	2383	29.6	49.2	29.73	-11.953	29.17	-11.727	29.27	-4.02	29.38	112.73	
	30.16	2390	30.27	44.9	30.39	-9.773	29.84	-11.422	29.96	-4.02	30.05	112.84	
	30.82	2391	30.93	45.5	31.05	-8.93	30.5	-9.617	30.6	-4.02	30.73	112.9	
	31.49	2394	31.6	45.1	31.73	-9	31.17	-9.008	31.27	-4.02	31.38	113	
	32.16	2392	32.27	44.5	32.39	-8.867	31.84	-9.031	31.96	-4.02	32.05	113.06	
	32.83	2398	32.96	45.1	33.06	-12.156	32.5	-8.453	32.6	-4.02	32.73	113.15	
	33.49	2395	33.6	54.8	33.73	-17.344	33.17	-11.117	33.27	-4.02	33.38	113.13	
	34.15	2397	34.24	58.1	34.36	-25.617	33.84	-16.961	33.96	-4.02	34.04	113.2	
	34.82	2398	34.93	68.8	35.05	-25.805	34.49	-26.477	34.6	-4.02	34.72	113.27	
	35.48	2400	35.59	64.5	35.69	-23.172	35.15	-25.75	35.26	-4.02	35.35	113.38	
	36.13	2401	36.24	63.4	36.36	-21.75	35.81	-23.313	35.91	-4.02	36.02	113.39	
	36.79	2399	36.9	62	37	-21.961	36.48	-22.039	36.58	-4.02	36.68	113.33	
	37.43	2392	37.54	62.1	37.66	-21.984	37.11	-22.016	37.22	-4.02	37.32	113.16	
	38.1	2389	38.22	61.5	38.33	-23.234	37.78	-22.234	37.88	-4.02	37.99	112.91	
	38.76	2384	38.85	63.6	38.98	-23.297	38.44	-23.219	38.54	-4.02	38.65	112.66	
	39.38	2378	39.49	63.6	39.61	-23.141	39.09	-23.68	39.21	-4.02	39.29	112.4	
	40.04	2372	40.15	64.4	40.25	-23.141	39.73	-23.047	39.84	-4.02	39.93	112.16	
	40.68	2373	40.79	63.7	40.9	-23.055	40.36	-23.375	40.48	-4.02	40.57	112.04	
	41.35	2367	41.47	63.3	41.58	-22.914	41.02	-23.219	41.13	-4.02	41.24	111.9	
	42.01	2360	42.1	63	42.23	-22.945	41.69	-23.219	41.79	-4.02	41.9	111.68	
	42.66	2361	42.76	64.2	42.87	-23.047	42.34	-22.961	42.46	-4.02	42.55	111.5	
	43.32	2361	43.43	62.9	43.54	-22.813	42.99	-23.328	43.1	-4.02	43.22	111.4	
	43.97	2354	44.07	63.8	44.19	-23.047	43.65	-22.938	43.76	-4.02	43.87	111.33	
	44.63	2356	44.74	63.6	44.86	-23.023	44.3	-23.18	44.41	-4.02	44.52	111.2	
	45.32	2356	45.43	63.6	45.54	-23.078	44.99	-22.977	45.1	-4.02	45.22	111.18	
	45.97	2357	46.07	64.1	46.19	-23.109	45.66	-23.352	45.76	-4.02	45.85	111.21	
	46.6	2356	46.73	60.9	46.84	-21.172	46.3	-22.055	46.4	-4.02	46.49	111.3	
	47.26	2356	47.37	61	47.48	-21.188	46.97	-21.133	47.06	-4.02	47.15	111.36	
	47.9	2359	48.01	60.7	48.11	-19.352	47.59	-21.352	47.72	-4.02	47.79	111.46	
	48.54	2368	48.65	58.9	48.75	-18.258	48.23	-19.227	48.33	-4.02	48.43	111.57	
	49.18	2364	49.29	57.2	49.4	-18.203	48.86	-18.43	48.98	-4.02	49.07	111.75	
	49.84	2369	49.93	58	50.05	-16.492	49.51	-17.883	49.62	-4.02	49.73	111.93	
	50.49	2377	50.6	54.7	50.73	-16.453	50.17	-16.633	50.27	-4.02	50.38	112.13	
	51.16	2382	51.26	55.7	51.36	-11.492	50.84	-16.148	50.96	-4.02	51.05	112.35	
	51.79	2384	51.9	47.2	52	-7.75	51.48	-12.367	51.59	-4.02	51.68	112.58	
	52.43	2389	52.54	40.5	52.66	-4.445	52.11	-7.141	52.23	-4.02	52.33	112.78	
	53.1	2395	53.23	39.4	53.34	-4.453	52.78	-4.195	52.88	-4.02	52.99	113.08	
	53.77	2396	53.88	39.2	54	-4.383	53.47	-4.125	53.55	-4.02	53.66	113.25	
	54.43	2407	54.54	37.5	54.66	5.18	54.11	-4.195	54.22	-4.02	54.32	113.51	
	55.1	2413	55.23	33.4	55.34	5.086	54.78	5.148	54.88	-4.02	54.99	113.81	
	55.76	2413	55.87	36.5	55.99	-5.883	55.47	5.719	55.55	-4.02	55.66	113.93	
	56.43	2414	56.54	41.7	56.66	-6.125	56.11	-4.984	56.23	-4.02	56.34	114.05	
	57.1	2416	57.23	41.1	57.35	-6.047	56.78	-6.344	56.88	-4.02	56.99	114.18	
	57.84	2417	57.93	41.6	58.05	-6.109	57.49	-5.688	57.6	-4.02	57.73	114.22	
	58.49	2412	58.6	40.9	58.74	-6.109	58.17	-6.258	58.27	-4.02	58.38	114.19	
	59.21	2414	59.29	40.7	59.41	-6.047	58.86	-6.258	58.98	-4.02	59.09	114	
	59.85	2408	59.97	41.5	60.08	-6.016	59.53	-6.305	59.63	-4.02	59.74	113.83	
	60.51	2402	60.62	40.2	60.74	-5.383	60.19	-5.906	60.29	-4.02	60.4	113.52	
	61.21	2391	61.29	40.4	61.41	-5.367	60.86	-5.516	60.98	-4.02	61.09	113.21	
	61.85	2389	61.98	40.4	62.1	-5.484	61.52	-5.227	61.63	-4.02	61.74	112.79	
	62.59	2376	62.68	41.3	62.8	-5.453	62.24	-5.516	62.35	-4.02	62.48	112.36	
	63.24	2367	63.35	40.4	63.49	-5.328	62.91	-5.688	63.02	-4.02	63.13	111.97	
	63.96	2358	64.04	44.4	64.16	-15.133	63.61	-5.141	63.73	-4.02	63.84	111.55	
	64.59	2353	64.71	56.5	64.8	-16.531	64.28	-14.367	64.38	-4.02	64.48	111.24	
	65.23	2351	65.34	54.6	65.44	-16.531	64.91	-16.633	65.01	-4.02	65.12	111.02	
	65.87	2347	65.98	55.4	66.1	-16.531	65.55	-16.539	65.67	-4.02	65.76	110.98	
	66.59	2345	66.71	55.8	66.8	-16.539	66.24	-16.453	66.35	-4.02	66.48	110.77	
	67.23	2339	67.34	45.5	67.44	18.266	66.91	-16.914	67.01	-4.02	67.12	110.54	
	67.87	2322	67.98	13.2	68.09	28	67.55	27.359	67.65	-4.02	67.76	110.25	
	68.54	2308	68.65	0	68.77	28	68.22	26.875	68.32	-4.02	68.43	109.41	
	69.23	2290	69.34	0	69.47	28	68.89	27.406	68.99	-4.02	69.1	108.44	
	69.87	2268	69.98	0	70.09	28	69.56	26.852	69.67	-4.02	69.76	107.43	
	70.51	2244	70.62	0	70.75	28	70.22	26.742	70.31	-4.02	70.4	106.41	
	71.18	2221	71.29	0	71.41	28	70.86	27.406	70.98	-4.02	71.09	105.22	
	71.85	2197	71.98	0	72.1	28	71.53	27.273	71.63	-4.02	71.74	104.04	
	72.57	2164	72.68	0	72.8	28	72.24	27.117	72.35	-4.02	72.47	102.78	
	73.24	2142	73.35	0	73.49	28	72.92	27.406	73.02	-4.02	73.13	101.45	
	73.93	2108	74.04	0	74.16	28	73.61	27.336	73.73	-4.02	73.84	100.13	
	74.6	2041	74.73	0	74.85	27.547	74.28	26.742	74.38	-4.02	74.49	99.01	
	75.34	1583	75.46	0	75.55	28	74.99	27.227	75.1	-4.02	75.23	98.07	
	75.98	2368	76.09	0	76.19	28	75.66	27.492	75.76	-4.02	75.87	96.58	
	76.62	2353	76.73	0	76.84	28	76.3	27.25	76.4	-4.02	76.51	95.23	
	77.26	2327	77.37	0	77.49	28	76.96	27.227	77.06	-4.02	77.15	94.09	
	77.93	2287	78.04	0	78.16	28	77.61	27.25	77.73	-4.02	77.84	92.73	
	78.59	1874	78.71	0	78.8	28	78.27	27.094	78.37	-4.02	78.48	91.47	
	79.23	1795	79.34	0	79.44	28	78.91	27.297	79.01	-4.02	79.12	90.2	
	79.87	2627	79.99	0	80.11	28	79.55	27.25	79.65	-4.02	79.76	88.18	
	80.59	2548	80.68	0	80.8	28	80.24	26.789	80.35	-4.02	80.48	86.38	
	81.23	2504	81.34	0	81.44	28	80.91	27.422	81.01	-4.02	81.12	84.81	
	81.87	2475	81.98	38.6	82.1	-19.031	81.55	26.656	81.65	-4.02	81.76	83.3	
	82.56	2443	82.65	89.7	82.77	-28	82.24	-23.797	82.35	-4.02	82.46	82.39	
	83.21	2450	83.29	118.3	83.41	-28	82.88	-28.102	82.99	-4.02	83.09	82.38	
	83.84	2441	83.96	23	84.05	28	83.52	-28.211	83.63	-4.02	83.73	82.52	
	84.49	2027	84.6	0	84.74	28	84.16	27.555	84.26	-4.02	84.37	81.6	
	85.22	2234	85.31	0	85.42	28	84.86	27.297	84.98	-4.02	85.09	79.95	
	85.84	3075	85.96	0	86.06	28	85.53	27.383	85.63	-4.02	85.73	77.38	
	86.48	3024	86.59	0	86.72	28	86.17	27.031	86.27	-4.02	86.37	75.21	
	87.15	2857	87.26	0	87.4	28	86.83	27.031	86.93	-4.02	87.04	71.92	
	87.84	2720	87.96	0	88.06	28	87.52	27.273	87.62	-4.02	87.73	68.14	
	88.48	2559	88.59	0	88.73	28	88.17	27.602	88.27	-4.02	88.37	64.14	
	89.15	2337	89.26	0	89.38	28	88.83	27.313	88.93	-4.02	89.04	59.34	
	89.84	2197	89.96	0	90.05	28	89.5	27.141	89.6	-4.02	89.73	55.14	
	90.49	2096	90.6	0	90.72	28	90.16	27.031	90.26	-4.02	90.37	52.66	
	91.15	2025	91.26	0	91.38	28	90.83	27.492	90.93	-4.02	91.04	50.69	
	91.84	1954	91.96	0	92.05	28	91.49	27.383	91.6	-4.02	91.73	48.76	
	92.49	1481	92.6	0	92.72	28	92.16	27.203	92.26	-4.02	92.37	47.07	
	93.12	945	93.23	14.6	93.35	28	92.81	28.391	92.91	-4.02	93.01	45.3	
	93.79	1061	93.9	14.2	94.02	28	93.47	28.063	93.57	-4.02	93.68	42.37	
	94.43	1498	94.54	11.7	94.66	28	94.13	27.555	94.23	-4.02	94.34	38.37	
	95.09	1076	95.21	11	95.32	28	94.77	28.352	94.87	-4.02	94.98	34.45	
	95.76	717	95.87	20.1	96	28	95.44	28.039	95.54	-4.02	95.65	29.59	
	96.46	710	96.56	18.1	96.66	28	96.11	27.93	96.23	-4.02	96.34	23.7	
	97.09	722	97.21	18.3	97.31	28	96.77	28.125	96.87	-4.02	96.98	18.23	
	97.73	708	97.84	19.4	97.97	28	97.42	28.109	97.52	-4.02	97.62	12.7	
	98.37	711	98.49	19.6	98.6	28	98.06	28.195	98.17	-4.02	98.27	7.51	
	99.06	785	99.16	31.7	99.27	7.883	98.74	27.031	98.85	-4.02	98.96	5.93	
	99.71	1076	99.81	48.2	99.91	-20.094	99.38	5.148	99.48	-4.02	99.59	5.82	
	100.34	1624	100.46	83.1	100.55	-29.156	100.02	-18.648	100.12	-4.02	100.23	6.83	
	100.99	1793	101.09	99	101.22	-26.5	100.66	-28.719	100.76	-4.02	100.87	9.97	
	101.65	1779	101.76	109.2	101.88	-26.094	101.33	-27.195	101.43	-4.02	101.54	14.59	
	102.31	2301	102.42	116.5	102.52	-28	101.99	-26.828	102.09	-4.02	102.21	18.01	
	102.96	2651	103.06	28.4	103.18	11.664	102.63	-27.773	102.73	-4.02	102.84	21.75	
	103.62	2295	103.73	24.7	103.85	9.219	103.3	21.781	103.4	-4.02	103.51	23.39	
	104.29	1506	104.4	116	104.52	-8.664	103.97	5.406	104.07	-4.02	104.18	23.24	
	104.96	1673	105.06	160	105.16	-10.109	104.63	-10.961	104.74	-4.02	104.85	25.48	
	105.59	1890	105.71	190.3	105.82	-10.461	105.27	-10.063	105.37	-4.02	105.48	28.99	
	106.26	2175	106.37	229.9	106.5	-2.742	105.94	-10.195	106.04	-4.02	106.15	33.61	
	106.96	2601	107.06	232.3	107.17	2.594	106.61	-2.086	106.73	-4.02	106.84	39.35	
	107.59	2909	107.71	195.6	107.8	-23.5	107.28	2.07	107.38	-4.02	107.48	44.76	
	108.23	2967	108.34	12.7	108.46	28	107.91	-26.344	108.01	-4.02	108.12	48.57	
	108.87	2656	108.98	51.7	109.1	-5.672	108.56	27.203	108.66	-4.02	108.76	48.19	
	109.51	1994	109.62	155.4	109.74	-4.75	109.21	-8.039	109.31	-4.02	109.41	48.5	
	110.15	2078	110.26	202.8	110.38	-8.32	109.85	-4.461	109.96	-4.02	110.06	50.41	
	110.8	2190	110.9	230.6	111.02	-5.82	110.49	-8.039	110.59	-4.02	110.71	53.33	
	111.46	2318	111.56	224.4	111.67	-2.477	111.13	-5.578	111.23	-4.02	111.34	56.61	
	112.09	2483	112.22	224.3	112.32	0.117	111.78	-2.305	111.88	-4.02	111.98	59.97	
	112.76	2610	112.87	205.7	113	-6.539	112.44	0.07	112.54	-4.02	112.65	63.44	
	113.46	2697	113.56	17.4	113.68	28	113.11	-9.844	113.23	-4.02	113.34	66.63	
	114.12	2414	114.23	0	114.35	21.266	113.8	26.875	113.9	-4.02	114.01	66.73	
	114.78	1968	114.87	43.3	114.99	-18.703	114.47	15.953	114.57	-4.02	114.67	66.13	
	115.46	1960	115.56	69.5	115.67	-23.781	115.1	-21.555	115.23	-4.02	115.34	65.9	
	116.12	1957	116.23	66.7	116.34	-22.875	115.79	-24.211	115.9	-4.02	116.01	66.04	
	116.78	1970	116.88	61.9	117	-12.828	116.47	-23.641	116.55	-4.02	116.66	66.19	
	117.47	1964	117.56	48.6	117.68	-12.422	117.11	-14.781	117.23	-4.02	117.34	66.22	
	118.12	1959	118.24	49.2	118.34	-12.453	117.8	-12.805	117.9	-4.02	118.01	65.9	
	118.78	1943	118.89	25.4	119	28	118.47	-11.906	118.57	-4.02	118.67	65.73	
	119.46	1921	119.56	11.9	119.68	28	119.11	27.625	119.23	-4.02	119.34	65.19	
	120.12	1893	120.24	0	120.35	28	119.79	27.578	119.9	-4.02	120.01	64.28	
	120.78	1866	120.89	0	121.01	28	120.47	27.531	120.57	-4.02	120.67	63.15	
	121.46	1833	121.56	0	121.68	28	121.13	27.227	121.23	-4.02	121.34	61.94	
	122.11	1795	122.24	0	122.35	28	121.8	27.531	121.89	-4.02	122	60.88	
	122.78	1767	122.89	0	123.01	28	122.46	27.055	122.56	-4.02	122.67	59.83	
	123.46	1737	123.56	0	123.68	28	123.13	27.664	123.22	-4.02	123.34	58.74	
	124.12	1699	124.23	0	124.35	28	123.79	27.25	123.9	-4.02	124.01	57.68	
	124.78	1305	124.88	16.9	125	28	124.47	28.109	124.56	-4.02	124.67	56.76	
	125.46	1430	125.56	11.3	125.67	28	125.11	28.109	125.23	-4.02	125.34	55.95	
	126.12	1942	126.24	0	126.35	28	125.79	27.031	125.9	-4.02	126.01	53.91	
	126.78	2003	126.88	0	126.99	28	126.47	26.922	126.56	-4.02	126.66	50.53	
	127.42	1906	127.53	0	127.64	28	127.1	27.336	127.22	-4.02	127.3	47.7	
	128.09	1767	128.21	0	128.31	28	127.76	27.141	127.86	-4.02	127.98	45.08	
	128.76	1637	128.87	0	128.99	28	128.43	27.625	128.54	-4.02	128.65	41.74	
	129.42	1514	129.53	0	129.65	28	129.1	27.82	129.21	-4.02	129.3	38.28	
	130.09	1346	130.21	0	130.32	28	129.77	27.93	129.87	-4.02	129.97	34.76	
	130.75	1265	130.87	0	131	28	130.43	28.039	130.54	-4.02	130.65	31.81	
	131.46	1264	131.56	44.6	131.68	-16.922	131.11	27.25	131.23	-4.02	131.34	30.65	
	132.12	1273	132.23	68.3	132.35	-15.555	131.8	-16.367	131.9	-4.02	132.01	30.91	
	132.78	1315	132.88	77.8	132.99	-19.867	132.47	-16.297	132.56	-4.02	132.67	31.97	
	133.42	1369	133.53	93.1	133.64	-22.445	133.1	-20.914	133.21	-4.02	133.31	33.35	
	134.09	1483	134.21	142.7	134.31	-7.938	133.75	-23.422	133.86	-4.02	133.97	35.44	
	134.76	1599	134.86	163.7	134.99	-11.609	134.43	-9.094	134.54	-4.02	134.65	38.3	
	135.46	1728	135.56	186.3	135.68	-12.273	135.1	-11.75	135.23	-4.02	135.34	41.86	
	136.12	1923	136.24	217.5	136.34	-11.148	135.8	-12.305	135.9	-4.02	136	45.74	
	136.78	2087	136.89	219.9	137.01	-5.391	136.47	-11.07	136.56	-4.02	136.67	50.09	
	137.46	2252	137.56	218.4	137.68	-2.227	137.13	-4.695	137.22	-4.02	137.34	54.77	
	138.12	2455	138.24	187.2	138.34	-1.195	137.8	-2.109	137.89	-4.02	138.01	58.98	
	138.78	2599	138.88	195.8	139	-1.156	138.47	-0.984	138.55	-4.02	138.66	62.91	
	139.46	2748	139.56	205.6	139.68	-0.07	139.1	-1.25	139.22	-4.02	139.33	67.18	
	140.11	2959	140.22	207.8	140.35	-0.125	139.79	-0.547	139.89	-4.02	140.01	71.46	
	140.78	3121	140.88	206.9	140.99	-0.625	140.47	0.07	140.55	-4.02	140.67	75.83	
	141.46	3284	141.56	204.7	141.67	-1.266	141.1	-0.766	141.24	-4.02	141.33	80.29	
	142.1	3492	142.21	206.4	142.32	-2.023	141.78	-1.359	141.88	-4.02	142	84.58	
	142.74	3642	142.83	212.3	142.97	-3.852	142.42	-2.438	142.53	-4.02	142.63	88.65	
	143.39	3793	143.49	199	143.6	-9.07	143.07	-4.938	143.16	-4.02	143.27	92.65	
	144.06	3936	144.16	193.1	144.28	-16.234	143.73	-9.992	143.83	-4.02	143.96	96.56	
	144.73	4025	144.84	0	144.97	28	144.4	-22.391	144.51	-4.02	144.61	100.25	
	145.38	3241	145.49	0	145.61	28	145.06	26.742	145.16	-4.02	145.28	100.93	
	146.05	2128	146.16	0	146.29	20.5	145.74	27.383	145.85	-4.02	145.96	101.15	
	146.73	2469	146.83	78	146.96	-28	146.4	16.375	146.51	-4.02	146.61	100.84	
	147.38	2517	147.47	102.8	147.59	-25.398	147.06	-29.047	147.16	-4.02	147.27	101.28	
	148.02	2537	148.13	149.4	148.25	-22.227	147.72	-25.328	147.81	-4.02	147.91	102.09	
	148.71	2570	148.81	163.8	148.92	-10.891	148.36	-22.43	148.47	-4.02	148.58	103.21	
	149.35	2594	149.46	181	149.57	0.336	149.03	-10.789	149.13	-4.02	149.24	104.24	
	150	2625	150.11	196	150.23	0.461	149.68	-0.438	149.79	-4.02	149.9	105.51	
	150.66	2658	150.78	212.1	150.89	2.188	150.34	-0.039	150.47	-4.02	150.56	106.91	
	151.33	2710	151.46	210.2	151.56	1.352	151.02	1.516	151.11	-4.02	151.23	108.54	
	152	2749	152.1	108.3	152.22	-3.953	151.67	0.969	151.77	-4.02	151.89	110.31	
	152.63	2748	152.74	17.2	152.86	28	152.31	5.016	152.41	-4.02	152.53	111.11	
	153.3	2712	153.42	0	153.53	28	152.99	27.117	153.09	-4.02	153.21	110.1	
	153.97	2677	154.08	0	154.22	28	153.64	26.852	153.75	-4.02	153.87	108.5	
	154.63	2636	154.75	0	154.86	28	154.31	26.922	154.41	-4.02	154.52	106.82	
	155.3	2594	155.41	0	155.54	28	154.98	27.203	155.08	-4.02	155.21	105.31	
	155.98	2563	156.08	0	156.22	28	155.65	27.164	155.75	-4.02	155.86	103.88	
	156.63	2567	156.74	60.1	156.86	-25.375	156.32	26.594	156.41	-4.02	156.53	102.6	
	157.31	2545	157.42	136.8	157.53	-16.148	156.98	-28.141	157.08	-4.02	157.21	102.11	
	157.97	2554	158.08	179.8	158.22	-11.109	157.64	-16.609	157.75	-4.02	157.85	102.66	
	158.63	2576	158.74	153.8	158.85	-11.492	158.31	-10.563	158.41	-4.02	158.52	103.71	
	159.3	2606	159.41	164.9	159.53	-11.594	158.98	-11.578	159.08	-4.02	159.21	104.61	
	159.96	2628	160.05	165.3	160.17	-11.555	159.64	-12.016	159.74	-4.02	159.85	105.56	
	160.6	2648	160.72	167.2	160.84	-11.336	160.28	-11.992	160.38	-4.02	160.49	106.62	
	161.27	2672	161.38	168.8	161.5	-10.359	160.97	-10.984	161.05	-4.02	161.16	107.76	
	161.96	2708	162.05	173.2	162.17	-3.758	161.61	-10.5	161.72	-4.02	161.83	108.72	
	162.6	2734	162.73	202.5	162.84	6.047	162.28	-4.414	162.38	-4.02	162.49	109.82	
	163.27	2778	163.38	258.2	163.5	11.852	162.97	4.328	163.05	-4.02	163.16	111.17	
	163.96	2816	164.05	261.7	164.17	13.125	163.61	12.328	163.72	-4.02	163.83	113.01	
	164.6	2866	164.71	270.3	164.81	16.461	164.28	13.805	164.38	-4.02	164.49	114.91	
	165.24	2903	165.35	278.1	165.48	16.711	164.92	16.305	165.02	-4.02	165.13	116.65	
	165.91	2953	166.02	273	166.14	-2.055	165.59	16.75	165.71	-4.02	165.8	118.44	
	166.58	2941	166.71	12.8	166.81	28	166.26	-6.922	166.36	-4.02	166.47	119.95	
	167.24	2655	167.35	87.1	167.47	-20.305	166.92	26.703	167.02	-4.02	167.13	118.7	
	167.88	2480	167.99	92.8	168.11	-27.898	167.56	-27.266	167.66	-4.02	167.77	117.65	
	168.55	2463	168.67	87.2	168.78	-27.773	168.23	-28.602	168.33	-4.02	168.46	116.75	
	169.21	2442	169.3	71.8	169.42	-23.844	168.89	-28.383	168.99	-4.02	169.1	115.81	
	169.85	2423	169.96	58.9	170.06	-20.055	169.53	-23.992	169.63	-4.02	169.74	114.74	
	170.49	2393	170.6	59.7	170.73	-20.414	170.17	-20.563	170.27	-4.02	170.38	113.57	
	171.16	2372	171.27	87.2	171.39	-28	170.84	-20.5	170.96	-4.02	171.05	112.38	
	171.83	2358	171.96	107.9	172.06	-28	171.5	-28.453	171.61	-4.02	171.73	111.53	
	172.49	2347	172.6	103.6	172.73	-28	172.17	-28.43	172.27	-4.02	172.38	111.1	
	173.16	2340	173.27	124.9	173.39	-26.648	172.84	-28.125	172.96	-4.02	173.05	110.67	
	173.83	2347	173.96	142.2	174.06	-21.813	173.5	-26.719	173.6	-4.02	173.72	110.49	
	174.49	2342	174.6	142.2	174.73	-21.266	174.17	-22.211	174.27	-4.02	174.38	110.52	
	175.16	2341	175.27	141.4	175.39	-23.297	174.84	-21.219	174.96	-4.02	175.05	110.63	
	175.83	2350	175.96	130.1	176.06	-27.086	175.5	-23.68	175.61	-4.02	175.73	110.83	
	176.49	2345	176.6	129.6	176.73	-28	176.17	-27.547	176.27	-4.02	176.38	110.87	
	177.16	2347	177.27	125.7	177.39	-28	176.84	-27.969	176.96	-4.02	177.05	110.92	
	177.83	2351	177.96	124.1	178.06	-28	177.52	-28.055	177.62	-4.02	177.72	110.97	
	178.49	2346	178.6	121.3	178.73	-28	178.17	-27.859	178.27	-4.02	178.38	110.96	
	179.16	2349	179.27	118.3	179.39	-28	178.84	-28.234	178.96	-4.02	179.05	110.99	
	179.82	2347	179.93	113.3	180.04	-28	179.5	-27.859	179.6	-4.02	179.72	111.04	
	180.47	2352	180.57	111	180.69	-28	180.15	-28.297	180.25	-4.02	180.37	111.03	
	181.13	2353	181.24	107.9	181.36	-28	180.81	-27.922	180.91	-4.02	181.02	111.06	
	181.84	2352	181.93	101.2	182.03	-28	181.49	-28.102	181.6	-4.02	181.72	111.11	
	182.48	2351	182.58	98.5	182.72	-27.898	182.14	-28.031	182.24	-4.02	182.35	111.12	
	183.13	2354	183.24	97	183.36	-27.773	182.81	-27.922	182.91	-4.02	183.02	111.13	
	183.8	2350	183.91	94.4	184.03	-27.68	183.48	-27.641	183.58	-4.02	183.71	111.08	
	184.47	2349	184.58	94.1	184.72	-27.813	184.14	-27.727	184.24	-4.02	184.35	110.99	
	185.13	2349	185.24	97.4	185.36	-27.93	184.81	-27.594	184.91	-4.02	185.02	110.93	
	185.8	2346	185.91	155.4	186.03	-11.398	185.48	-28.164	185.58	-4.02	185.71	110.9	
	186.47	2360	186.59	170.5	186.69	-9.625	186.14	-11.469	186.24	-4.02	186.35	111.26	
	187.13	2375	187.24	204.5	187.36	-2.648	186.81	-8.898	186.91	-4.02	187.02	111.82	
	187.8	2387	187.91	202.7	188.03	-2.352	187.48	-1.578	187.58	-4.02	187.71	112.6	
	188.48	2403	188.57	217.2	188.69	-2.164	188.14	-1.555	188.24	-4.02	188.35	113.42	
	189.13	2424	189.24	219.4	189.36	-1.672	188.81	-1.906	188.91	-4.02	189.02	114.18	
	189.84	2436	189.93	231.6	190.05	-1.227	189.49	-1.297	189.6	-4.02	189.72	115.01	
	190.49	2458	190.6	231.4	190.73	-0.797	190.17	-0.438	190.27	-4.02	190.38	115.8	
	191.16	2464	191.27	206	191.39	-0.828	190.84	-0.766	190.96	-4.02	191.05	116.53	
	191.82	2482	191.93	214.5	192.05	-1.172	191.5	-1.203	191.62	-4.02	191.72	117	
	192.49	2476	192.6	112.3	192.73	-29.25	192.17	-1.734	192.27	-4.02	192.38	117.46	
	193.16	2479	193.27	142.7	193.39	-9.484	192.84	-29.219	192.96	-4.02	193.05	117.23	
	193.82	2479	193.93	202.3	194.05	-0.547	193.5	-5.031	193.6	-4.02	193.73	117.01	
	194.49	2487	194.6	202.3	194.73	-0.328	194.17	-0.742	194.27	-4.02	194.38	117.3	
	195.15	2503	195.26	203.5	195.36	-14.609	194.84	-0.086	194.96	-4.02	195.04	117.8	
	195.79	2501	195.9	104	196	-27.734	195.48	-18.406	195.58	-4.02	195.72	118.21	
	196.43	2491	196.54	33.3	196.66	18.516	196.11	-20.234	196.22	-4.02	196.32	117.77	
	197.1	2443	197.23	14.3	197.34	18.539	196.78	17.406	196.88	-4.02	196.99	116.56	
	197.77	2429	197.88	17.8	198	18.57	197.47	18.922	197.55	-4.02	197.66	115.14	
	198.43	2412	198.54	34.7	198.66	-6.078	198.11	19.008	198.22	-4.02	198.34	113.8	
	199.09	2381	199.18	54.2	199.3	-22.75	198.76	-5.047	198.87	-4.02	198.98	112.81	
	199.74	2367	199.85	74.9	199.98	-27.07	199.42	-23.023	199.52	-4.02	199.63	112.08	
	200.4	2364	200.51	86.8	200.62	-27.398	200.09	-27.313	200.21	-4.02	200.29	111.67	
	201.07	2358	201.18	89.6	201.3	-27.383	200.74	-27.727	200.85	-4.02	200.97	111.5	
	201.74	2352	201.85	84.7	201.98	-27.063	201.42	-27.531	201.52	-4.02	201.63	111.39	
	202.4	2355	202.51	77.9	202.61	-26.672	202.09	-27.266	202.22	-4.02	202.29	111.33	
	203.04	2356	203.15	79.9	203.26	-27.156	202.73	-26.695	202.84	-4.02	202.93	111.17	
	203.68	2353	203.79	86.7	203.9	-27.102	203.37	-27.438	203.48	-4.02	203.57	111.14	
	204.32	2356	204.43	79.9	204.54	-26.742	204.01	-27.57	204.12	-4.02	204.23	111.22	
	204.97	2354	205.07	71	205.19	-24.992	204.65	-26.805	204.76	-4.02	204.85	111.31	
	205.61	2356	205.72	64.1	205.83	-22.727	205.3	-24.961	205.4	-4.02	205.51	111.3	
	206.24	2356	206.35	64.9	206.49	-25.883	205.97	-22.938	206.06	-4.02	206.15	111.14	
	206.93	2344	207.04	72.7	207.16	-26.625	206.61	-26.492	206.73	-4.02	206.83	110.93	
	207.6	2345	207.72	80.7	207.83	-26.953	207.28	-26.719	207.38	-4.02	207.49	110.78	
	208.26	2339	208.35	84.5	208.48	-27.313	207.94	-27.219	208.04	-4.02	208.15	110.67	
	208.9	2338	209.01	90.9	209.12	-27.688	208.59	-27.109	208.71	-4.02	208.81	110.59	
	209.57	2343	209.68	95.5	209.8	-27.867	209.24	-27.75	209.35	-4.02	209.47	110.51
 
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   #24  

BigJetTech

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Well Jack, I'm not sure.

IDE00182 reads a -4.02 and it's rock steady. From what I can gather that block is giving a number for "stretch". I'm not exactly sure "what" it is measuring. Is that the delta between crank position and cam position ?

I was looking more at blocks IDE00178 specified and IDE00179 actual. They run very consistent. The measurements on those blocks run from 28 to a -28 depending on engine load.

The mechanical timing was checked at the time of the tensioner installation and the measured distances were in tolerance.. so I was told.

Mike
 
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I don't use VCDS logs to determine or interpret chain stretch or any part for that matter now & only due to widespread FOD, I measure actual mechanical components, wouldn't you?

Whether retarded from wrong timing, oil PSI, stretch or adjuster it's still out of time and must be physically addressed & "MECHANICAL'S MUST BE SET OR TESTED", no?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Did some research here and reviewed TSB's. The vehicle has 163,xxx miles on it. It's never had any cam work done on it or had the tensioner replaced - Soooo ... not having the time or tools or experience with doing the job on the engine I took it to a HIGHLY reputable shop. Had the tensioner replaced, asked about chain "stretch" and wear. I was talked out of doing a chain and guide replacement. Values and measurements were checked all found to be good.


Just nuts.......WHAT!







::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: LOGS HAVE A PLACE! THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED TO LOOK FOR WHAT IS ALREADY KNOWN or AT RISK OF POSSIBLE FURTHER ENGINE DAMAGE! ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


You know I really thought about this question that everyone keeps posing for measuring for timing or stretched chains with logs & see it as an immense waste of time for people to engage even on the dealer level.

The ECU has specified a trouble code for timing correlation & regardless of the actual physical cause and in some cases where tampering is evident either electronically or physically it all must be actually verified by hands on testing.

What would be the point in using block values for this, unless you had "no fault code" and why would anyone be crazy enough to run an engine further willfully negligent or out of time & with risk of catastrophic mechanical engine damage?

If a fault is present, than thresholds in logs will always show the fault which expressed a deviation, but not indicate a possible failure of any specific component in many cases.

Example Boost :
( Gets tagged with a DTC for negative or positive deviation & can be very helpful )

Example Timing :
( Gets tagged also -/+ for over advanced or retarded when out of correlation as the DTC and since timing is forced retarded by default since oil PSI pushes it that way to line up the base setting, most only see the over advanced tag. )
The important thing here is that tag could be for a bad G28 or G40 or mechanical/hydraulic components, ports, install of the incorrect parts, chain stretch, adjuster failure, oil PSI issue, or timing just set wrong!

Example:
Now in the case for no fault code present & logs still showed no evidence of a problem but there was indeed FOD, I have found idiots moving the pickup on the adjuster reluctor window & to sneak a car through an auction or circumvent a repair but in end it ended very bad for a motor.
Than there are dudes adding resistor's buried in a harness & even sometimes history will tell us was done by an OEM TSB due to laziness.


I have searched the net, and manuals available to me to find an oil circuit diagram to figure out where it came from and what it was for ? the shop I am dealing with is at a loss for where it liberated itself. Anybody know of a oil circuit schematic for an EA113 CAEB ?
Isn't a CAEB an EA888 engine family?:p

Mike been here?

http://www.vaglinks.com/vaglinks_com/Docs/SSP/VWUSA.COM_SSP_922903_2.0L_4V_TFSI_Engine.pdf
 
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I don't use VCDS logs to determine or interpret chain stretch or any part for that matter now & only due to widespread FOD, I measure actual mechanical components, wouldn't you?

Whether retarded from wrong timing, oil PSI, stretch or adjuster it's still out of time and must be physically addressed & "MECHANICAL'S MUST BE SET OR TESTED", no?
VW techline (back when I worked at a dealer) told me that little tid bit about cam sync angle or cam phase position (they word it differently in different vehicles).

Basically, that measured value is its measurement of where the cam position starts before the adjuster does anything. And running the test for the adjuster in basic settings can sometimes change that number a little. The phase position is not a constantly measured value, it's only really measured by the computer at start up or during an active test of the adjuster.

VW's official guideline to dealer techs is as that phase position/sync angle gets to -5 or further negative, there is significant chain stretch that should be addressed soon. The only other guideline they generally give is to pry off that inspection hole cover and take a look at how far extended the chain tensioner is. But with understanding the measured values and how it can change after running a related basic setting, and having a guideline value for which it's getting time to take action, you don't have to get your hands dirty.

FWIW, there have been other timing chain engines that set odd lean or "vacuum leak" or even MAP sensor codes (2.5 5 cylinder) that can be real head scratchers. Then I'd have techline advise me to check the cam phase position and sure as shit, the values are well beyond the normal range indicating chain stretch... Doesn't happen that frequently on those engines anymore, but the first couple years of the 2.5L engines were a bit rough. Their target number there is the same with the 2.5. -5 degrees or further negative, time to do chains, guides and tensioner.
 
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It's all a very interesting discussion, to me the quest for knowledge always is.

Yes Jack, after learning what I have here with all the TB's and SB's it is NUTS !, that a highly respectable shop would actually say something isn't needed and they haven't really seen the issue. I have it all in writing and on the service order. Water under the bridge.
Second shop, disappointing at best, they were RIGHT THERE.. and didn't see it. Two shops with good reputations. Second one said it was a teardown of the head and new intake cam and possible head at a minimum, also spoke of balance shafts, needing to be done, ohhh and the turbo is most likely shot as well at this age and miles.

So it posed the original question... can the patient be saved .. yes it can, and was inexpensively. Completely healed and restored ? No, it's not. It is aged and worn, and a bit retarded, ;) that's all.

Knowing now that the -4.02 reading is the "cam set point", it is retarded and yes the only way to verify that is to measure the mechanical parts to find out why. Poor design of the tensioning system ? Allowing to much hysteresis ? I am still uncertain of "what" is being measured in that block. - Yes Jack I will be going over that link you sent, THANK YOU. I would say it is an EA 888, I'm no expert with it however.

It is also very interesting that we as technicians and the profession we are in, have come to rely so heavily on the electronics to accomplish our work and troubleshooting. Reading 1's and zero's for position and switch information, the logging of data, and monitoring of position feedback loops. we seem to forget they are INDICATIONS. We need to be able to interpret WHAT they are trying to tell us or measure to be able to use the least amount of time to get to the bottom of the problem. Have we forgotten the physics that we work with, for us as humans to actually INSPECT, and MEASURE. I see younger technicians through their hands up in frustration, because of conflicting data, rather than using it as a tool to investigate why it's conflicting and the ACTUAL issue. We wouldn't go a vehicle to repair it with a single crescent wrench, it is only one tool in many we should be using. Maybe the best one we have is between our ears.

I would like to THANK ALL of you that participated in this quest of mine for an answer. I am more knowledgeable, because of YOU FOLKS.
I have no codes and I will tinker with it as time allows.

Cheers
Mike
 
   #29  

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I agree with aforementioned but not when a direct DTC exists for timing correlation logs mean nothing at that point for phase!
Yeah studying hysteresis and longitudinal wave stuff recently for fun, you got me.
Been building some cool magneto stuff too, with 3 to 2 phase outputs and focused from alternator converted to dc motor and rev the poles to coils on power output stages from the stator.
 
   #30  

Jack@European_Parts

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VW Tech line has been known to publish clearly they don't understand blocks from basic settings or adaption, no? Sometimes they can't even reference whether a car is gas or diesel properly too?

The aforementioned for what I state should be a rule, well it is for me and ever since a rebuild on an old ATQ many years ago, it figuratively bit me right in the ass!

Car came in with smoked valves from adjuster shoes worn to nub.
The sprockets are press fit on cam & with no alignment marks whatsoever nothing in RTFB & if they move on press fit. After reassembly, new chain, tensioners, belt etc. etc. and all tapers lined up with dead on adjusters, fired car up & the car had a G40 code and a slight stumble.
So like a dumb ass I commenced the basic settings test in 094 and it was time to install two new valves and in end a new intake cam.
That day I took a new set of cams and documented the non existent alignments and do so on anything that is similar in design internally.

Either people can absorb what I'm trying to say here or fuckem suffer the fool!

Don't say I didn't warn you!

Tech line could not answer the timing mark for press fit question either, I had to talk to friends at SWAG in AG!
 
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   #31  

dieseldub

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VW Tech line has been known to publish clearly they don't understand blocks from basic settings or adaption, no? Sometimes they can't even reference whether a car is gas or diesel properly too?

The aforementioned for what I state should be a rule, well it is for me and ever since a rebuild on an old ATQ many years ago, it figuratively bit me right in the ass!

Car came in with smoked valves from adjuster shoes worn to nub.
The sprockets are press fit on cam & with no alignment marks whatsoever nothing in RTFB & if they move on press fit. After reassembly, new chain, tensioners, belt etc. etc. and all tapers lined up with dead on adjusters, fired car up & the car had a G40 code and a slight stumble.
So like a dumb ass I commenced the basic settings test in 094 and it was time to install two new valves and in end a new intake cam.
That day I took a new set of cams and documented the non existent alignments and do so on anything that is similar in design internally.

Either people can absorb what I'm trying to say here or fuckem suffer the fool!

Don't say I didn't warn you!

Tech line could not answer the timing mark for press fit question either, I had to talk to friends at SWAG in AG!
Just because one individual on their team couldn't figure out a rare, oddball issue doesn't mean all their suggestions are trash...

Are they all spot on the money the first time? No. But I've definitely had a couple that were really, really good when I worked at the dealer. And this is a measurement they repeat frequently to technicians as a useful guideline... I sometimes used them for things I pretty much already knew the answer to just so I wouldn't get screwed if it ended up not working and they decided to dock pay for not fixing it the first time. Then I get to say "AH ah ah! Tech line told me to...! Pay up!" Usually wasn't necessary, but covering one's ass is the name of the game when warranty pay is already super stingy and you can be completely back-flagged for the time you invested.

I've also heard that the current guys compared to who they had maybe 15-20 years ago, whole different ball game. They've been improving on their processes to assist technicians quite a lot in that time... unfortunately they also use that as an excuse to pay techs less and less, then wonder why they can't keep the smart guys around.

Of course, that doesn't help someone figure out something like the sprocket being rotated on the end of the shaft... or a cam lobe, for that matter. Which does happen on EA888s on occasion... and 2.5s. The shafts are hollow, the lobes are press/heat fit to the shaft and can indeed rotate on the shaft.

Anyway, whatever might have happened with the instructions in the manual for the 2.8 must have changed as I did one of those recently and the factory repair manual was pretty spot on with the difference between banks. Plus, just taking careful note of where it is before disassembling always helps, at least if it's a known-good operating unit prior to disassembly. I was in there just fixing oil leaks... Valve cover gaskets, chain tensioner gaskets and the round plugs at the back of the exhaust cams.
 
   #32  

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VW Tech line has been known to publish clearly they don't understand blocks from basic settings or adaption, no? Sometimes they can't even reference whether a car is gas or diesel properly too?

The aforementioned for what I state should be a rule, well it is for me and ever since a rebuild on an old ATQ many years ago, it figuratively bit me right in the ass!

Car came in with smoked valves from adjuster shoes worn to nub.
The sprockets are press fit on cam & with no alignment marks whatsoever nothing in RTFB & if they move on press fit. After reassembly, new chain, tensioners, belt etc. etc. and all tapers lined up with dead on adjusters, fired car up & the car had a G40 code and a slight stumble.
So like a dumb ass I commenced the basic settings test in 094 and it was time to install two new valves and in end a new intake cam.
That day I took a new set of cams and documented the non existent alignments and do so on anything that is similar in design internally.

Either people can absorb what I'm trying to say here or fuckem suffer the fool!

Don't say I didn't warn you!

Tech line could not answer the timing mark for press fit question either, I had to talk to friends at SWAG in AG!
Id like to think that on that motor and others like the 2.7t its a general rule of thumb that when doing that kind of work you loosen the sprocket bolts and "pop" the cam sprockets with a puller so they free spin. But that's why the elliptical washers are there, to use the cam timing bar from bank to bank... Long story short, the only mark you need is the crank pulley notch to cover, doing a t-belt, or adjusters, the cam bar will lock the whole top end right. Granted with adjusters leave the valve covers off so you can confirm the cam notches to the cam caps, if the crank is off, since the cam sprockets are popped, top end locked with the bar, just turn the crank pulley till its in time and the whole timing belt moves with it, then tighten the cam bolts and your good to go. Dont misunderstand me, you're definitely a smart person and know what you're doing seeing some of the things you post that i learn from, but just seems like it was a preventable situation for someone like you.
 
   #33  

Jack@European_Parts

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Id like to think that on that motor and others like the 2.7t its a general rule of thumb that when doing that kind of work you loosen the sprocket bolts and "pop" the cam sprockets with a puller so they free spin. But that's why the elliptical washers are there, to use the cam timing bar from bank to bank... Long story short, the only mark you need is the crank pulley notch to cover, doing a t-belt, or adjusters, the cam bar will lock the whole top end right. Granted with adjusters leave the valve covers off so you can confirm the cam notches to the cam caps, if the crank is off, since the cam sprockets are popped, top end locked with the bar, just turn the crank pulley till its in time and the whole timing belt moves with it, then tighten the cam bolts and your good to go. Dont misunderstand me, you're definitely a smart person and know what you're doing seeing some of the things you post that i learn from, but just seems like it was a preventable situation for someone like you.
This is exactly the type response I was expecting and hoping for & to make this point even more well known, you fell right into the trap, further showing you know some things but not of what I am speaking.

I am not making reference to the cam belt sprockets that freewheel, I am speaking of the chain sprockets at the adjuster on the cams directly. The notch you reference is on the cams as you describe, however, the sprockets are press fit and have no mark or key way keys to ref, so if a cam sprocket moves there is no disruption of the cams at each notch but the links you count and deviation of the adjuster will go unseen. Especially if you are taking apart a motor which is already damaged.

This is why on new engines I center punch any index unmarked timing to each other for future inspections on my own vehicles.

SAMZ09 Please consider what I have tried to convey here and if you need further instruction let me know, trust me it will click!
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Just because one individual on their team couldn't figure out a rare, oddball issue doesn't mean all their suggestions are trash...
Yup the head asshole in charge at the time!
I copied people in the emails, so it can be established too!

CYA .....absolutely!
Documentation is King indeed!
 
   #35  

Jack@European_Parts

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What I am trying to share here, should resonate with all of you which truly understand the mechanical mechanisms I speak.
Especially the Dictator in charge!
I see this thread as an essential work detail and use of tester lesson for many that could save people much headache or drama for money not needed to be spent.
The OEM should be ashamed for not addressing it either, because it has cost the VAG company millions internally and because of shear/sheer laziness!
 
   #36  

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What I am trying to share here, should resonate with all of you which truly understand the mechanical mechanisms I speak.
So true - too many people rely on the electronic diagnostic systems to tell them what a complex mechanical system is doing - and if those diagnostics were written by someone without sufficient mechanical knowledge, or don't have good input data from sensors (GIGO), the diagnostics WILL be misleading.
 
   #37  

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In this case it is about 4 things & which are VCDS VERY important!

Measuring blocks = Watching/Observing but be mindful!

Basic settings or adaptation = An order instruction you better know WTF you are doing, damage could be lurking if used improper by command of wrong instruction!

Mechanical mechanism knowledge/training + RTFB = To be used with VCDS/VAS and VCDS or VAS are not to substitute the SSP or RTFB & Training never ends!
RTFB/SSP is sometimes wrong or omits critical material or entire industry is mislead by ignorance.

FOD! = Always be aware that FOD is possible and FOD can be induced even by design flaw & YOU/ME!


I make mistakes, this is not one of them and am indeed an asshole at times, possibly now, it is with my utmost sincere request you all consider this thread with a very large degree of importance/priority!

NostraJackASS Has Spoken an ORDER!
 
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This is exactly the type response I was expecting and hoping for & to make this point even more well known, you fell right into the trap, further showing you know some things but not of what I am speaking.

I am not making reference to the cam belt sprockets that freewheel, I am speaking of the chain sprockets at the adjuster on the cams directly. The notch you reference is on the cams as you describe, however, the sprockets are press fit and have no mark or key way keys to ref, so if a cam sprocket moves there is no disruption of the cams at each notch but the links you count and deviation of the adjuster will go unseen. Especially if you are taking apart a motor which is already damaged.

This is why on new engines I center punch any index unmarked timing to each other for future inspections on my own vehicles.

SAMZ09 Please consider what I have tried to convey here and if you need further instruction let me know, trust me it will click!
HAHA seemed to good to be true, someone like you saying such a thing..He didn't use the bar? ha Unless i read it wrong, I was under the impression you were speaking of the front sprockets. Kinda looked like a trap... felt like a trap.. had to be a trap and it was! ha. But no not really because i took something away from it. Yes i have personally encountered shifted sprockets, shifted cam lobes, shot needle bearings on the roller rockers, intake and exhaust (also the audi with vvt) on the tsi motors, fsi possibly but really cant remember. I'm no veteran of the trade so that said I've worked on almost all the motors, not W12 though. But a shifted sprocket on a 1.8t, 2.7t, or 2.8 i happen to not have happen to me. SO ive learned its possible even on the older engines as well. I may have seen at some point aftermarket parts that made me notice the gears are not integral but it long slipped my brain.

So i completely follow all the things you've said, however let me add this, if i can word it correct.

Say you're swapping a adjuster, you use paint to mark the chain so R&R it goes back to same. Your not using the notches so you wont know. But..technically if you were to use the notches. Even if one gear was to move, trying to align the other cam would always put the other out of spec. (edit) IF counting the links between cams while doing all these other things, then i guess you'd see the problem right then no?) Front sprocket with ellipse, connected to cam, cam with notch, cam the gear. So using the bar would set the exhaust cam, and put the intake cam out, or turning the intake cam would make the bar not line up no?

Granted it would be hard to see if the gear was to shift say half a tooth, the adjuster may still extend and make it look passable. So one out would make the other one out right? Unless 1 in a million both gears shift the same amount or something then that'd really screw you up.

What was your situation if you can remember, one or both cams? or both but one more than the other?

side note, had a parts 1.8t and did take a gander at one of the cams, it did have a punch mark on the cam and the cam gear, was it from the factory or added by someone else i cant say. I guess that would be the only reference point. Unless you personally know, or have a set of good cams for each engine laying around, if cams dont have a mark and you are trying to confirm. How would you? because yes something like a shifter gear by half a links worth can happen. And youll go nuts trying to solve it if you know no better

First shifted cam gear i ran into on a tsi, good thing there was a good set of cams to use for comparison
 
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   #39  

Jack@European_Parts

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Car came to me dead towed in & as a xylophone head with bent valves and adjuster shot, dealer put a belt in and an adjuster on one side, then I got the phone call.

I have always used the lock bar and indeed let the cam gears freewheel when setting a belt, however, the heads cams can be done on bench without any cam lock bar & installation of an adjuster with chain to cams the bar is not relevant for what I speak.

You are kind of missing the point.

Two things are happening when a cam has floated on the sprocket.

1. It has effectively broken the "press fit" hold from sprocket to cam and the float permits a move that doesn't show or possible under load not install visually!
( The only way to know is to press off and verify or if it was prior marked showing clear deviation )
2. Notches on cams will appear as if in proper spot/location and link count checks to lock bar causing the deception.
3. If you painted sprockets that were already floated on press fit & on damaged engine there is no point of that right?
4. Exhaust cam with lock bar or without and irrelevant to sprocket location since notch is at 12 o'clock position anyway on each cam!

Yes I have informed many of this and some guys are center punching sprockets and cams on outer face, no the OEM doesn't have a key way at notch in cam and no they don't mark them for press fit reference. ( yup it's stupid that they don't )

Engines that are in for routine service & with no pre existing catastrophic damage won't have a problem unless someone sets the timing & like really really wrong, but again is why I am saying if you have a timing correlation DTC, don't do basic settings for adjuster and permit the adjuster to advance & because it can cause what I aforementioned. Shit you already know it's out of time at that point anyway & by the fact you have the DTC!

I have now seen it mostly on intake cam but it can happen on exhaust too or both in a luck of the draw of a damaged motor when adjuster shoe has gone rouge or inadequate oil PSi/volume is not making its way to head, cams or adjuster.

Yes having a set of new or known good used cams will be a quick way to ref the sprockets correct location and to make a mark on each, but the sprockets should be removed in press and verified for press fit deviation damage on a damaged engine before reusing a cam.

So many assholes set the cam timing wrong on a 1.8T just because they forget to factor for oil PSI deviation and that the exhaust cam is at 12 and intake is slightly after in relaxed state + the RTFB shows a stupid illustration.

I wrote this a while back due too it. https://forums.ross-tech.com/showth...hain-with-adjuster-before-installing-a-bellt!

Samz09 thank you for engaging!
 
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BigJetTech

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I had heard the cam front sprocket was a "press fit" .. and that just blows my mind (small explosion). No splines ? No woodruff key ? Really .. it is the cost of manufacturing that drives that type of decision. I can't speak to any of those specific VAG products you guys are talking about, but have seen the same with Boeing and Airbus and the related suppliers. There is stuff out there the will bite you .. and big time.

What I am trying to share here, should resonate with all of you which truly understand the mechanical mechanisms I speak.
I am speaking about our professional field here

One only needs to look at the current issue with Boeing and it's "737 MAX"

Mechanical mechanism knowledge/training + RTFB = To be used with VCDS/VAS and VCDS or VAS are not to substitute the SSP or RTFB & Training never ends!
RTFB/SSP is sometimes wrong or omits critical material or entire industry is mislead by ignorance.

FOD! = Always be aware that FOD is possible and FOD can be induced even by design flaw & YOU/ME!
It's a professional attitude I believe Jack is referring too, I believe we need to live them, and to pass the standards on. I said early on I debated whether or not this was a UWE BAR discussion ... I am glad there are people out there like you guys, it gives me hope for a profession I grew up being around, worked life long in. The guys that welcome a challenge and refuse to let a machine beat them :)

Jack, it's crazy that stuff your experimenting with ... where do you find the time ;)

Mike
 
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