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[BlueR32]

Uwe - You could be re-trained.

I have found equal success with the DSG/manual on both track and street "at the limit" of traction but I understand the engagement of a manual for those who are serious driving enthusiasts. An automatic was never designed to be a superior device for driving at the limit. It's meant as a convenience for those who lack the skills to properly operate a manual or who do a lot of city driving and don't want to wear their left leg out manipulating the clutch pedal. A DSG in manual mode will do basically anything a manual can do because after all it is just a computer controlled (when desired) manual trans.

Does that make me a curmudgeon because I wear a mechanical watch also?

 

[davisev5225]

Does that make me a curmudgeon because I wear a mechanical watch also?

I've got a wind-up pocket watch stashed away somewhere...

That said, I'm definitely in the camp of "manual transmissions must die". Automatics have been better (stronger, more fuel efficient, longer service intervals, etc.) for a couple decades now. Manuals provide nothing objectively valuable except additional theft protection at this point.

 

[JeniCzech92]

Some, sure. But there is no question that I feel far more engaged in driving, and in control when at the edge of traction, with a manual than an automatic of any kind.

But then I'm an old curmudgeon who wears a mechanical watch too.

-Uwe-

I completely understand that, but I opted for DSG simply because of my past career, I drove a lot of kilometers in a city with a manual. To a point I swore never again. Transmission is a task that could be very easily automated. There are tasks that can be much better handled by automation than by human operator (extended braking maneuvers, such as braking individual wheels - imagine a driver do that and decide which wheel, not to mention how would driver possibly issue such commands reliably via human interface). And while DSG from factory tune is nowhere near perfect, it's software controlled nature allows it to be tweaked to behave in a much more reasonable manner, albeit perhaps less environmentally friendly. Current major problem of automated transmissions is prediction capability - in current design, the driver has to either voice his intent to the TCU by tiptronic or throttle position.

 

[Uwe]

a lot of city driving and don't want to wear their left leg out manipulating the clutch pedal.

I avoid cities like the plague that they are, and I don't want my left let to atrophy.

-Uwe-

 

[Uwe]

I'm definitely in the camp of "manual transmissions must die".

If you don't want a manual, don't buy one. It's not like there are cars that aren't offered with automatics.

What gets those of us that like them is that there are so few of them left to be had.

Audi USA: Zero
VW USA: Just one: the Jetta GLI.
Pickups: Just one: the Toyota Tacoma.

If I had more garage space, I'd be tempted to buy a new GLI now, but I don't really need it. I've got a 2016 Golf R with a 6MT.

-Uwe-

 

[PetrolDave]

My fiance has an Audi A5 cabrio with 6MT and I have a Skoda Octavia with a 7speed DSG so we can choose depending on where we are driving.

The DSG Octavia gets chosen for city driving and long trips, but the 6MT A5 gets chosen when we want to enjoy "driving" not just motoring

 

[Uwe]

My fiance has an Audi A5 cabrio with 6MT

Sounds like a keeper to me!

-Uwe-

 

[davisev5225]

If you don't want a manual, don't buy one. It's not like there are cars that aren't offered with automatics.

That's why you basically can't buy a new manual transmission vehicle in the USA, and the UK and EU aren't all that far behind - they're starting to sunset manual transmission offerings as well. Market pressure has moved DEEP into automatics territory, pretty much rejecting manual transmissions wholesale.

Transmission is a task that could be very easily automated. There are tasks that can be much better handled by automation than by human operator (extended braking maneuvers, such as braking individual wheels - imagine a driver do that and decide which wheel, not to mention how would driver possibly issue such commands reliably via human interface).

This is the exact same reasoning why you no longer have a spark advance lever, choke (or enrichener), etc. It's the same reason you don't have to double-clutch a manual transmission anymore (once to get into neutral, again to move into the next gear). It's the same reason we added timing advance and other automated systems to engines. There's no good reason to have a person do everything manually when we can either automate it through analog means (like synchro gears in a manual transmission or vacuum-based chokes in carbureted motorcycles) or a computer can do it faster, easier, and usually make better choices than the human operator can. The vehicle computer(s) have access to far more information than you do, and can make decisions many times faster than you can. It also frees up more of your concentration for the road in front of you instead of managing a myriad of control inputs that are better served offloaded to a computer.

This is the same reason that fully automated driving systems will eventually take over and you won't even drive your own car, though the auto industry is rushing far, far too quickly into that one. The tech to do it safely and reliably is years if not decades away still.

 

[PetrolDave]

This is the same reason that fully automated driving systems will eventually take over and you won't even drive your own car, though the auto industry is rushing far, far too quickly into that one. The tech to do it safely and reliably is years if not decades away still.

Totally agree with that.

 

[Crasher]

I have a couple of questions with FSD cars. What happens when you have been using self driving for a decade without even the tiniest problem and suddenly at 70mph the car instructs you to take over and drive the car to a workshop? Pilots have to stay current on type so why not drivers. If we can have self driving cars, which is THE most challenging transportation environment you can possible think of, why not self driving trains which is the simplest forum of mechanised transport, stop and go in a highly controlled and protected environment? One word, Unions...

 

[PetrolDave]

why not self driving trains

All the trains on London's DLR are self driving, and I believe that's also true on the Elizabeth Line.

 

[Uwe]

This is the same reason that fully automated driving systems will eventually take over and you won't even drive your own car,

Sounds like you agree with the "tin foil" assertions in the video I posted.

FWIW, I will never buy, lease, rent, or ride in a car that can't be driven manually. That's not to say I wouldn't consider a car that has self-driving capabilities, but it must have an override for manual control.

-Uwe-

 

[davisev5225]

Sounds like you agree with the "tin foil" assertions in the video I posted.

I didn't even watch it, so I'll take your word for it.

It's not hard to notice trends.

FWIW, I will never buy, lease, rent, or ride in a car that can't be driven manually. That's not to say I wouldn't consider a car that has self-driving capabilities, but it must have an override for manual control.

100% agreed. I find it hilarious that my current car sometimes tells me I need to "take over the wheel" (or whatever the message says) when my hands never left wheel at all and I've been in control the whole time - apparently I sometimes steer EXACTLY how the car would if left on its own.

Self-driving systems just aren't ready yet, and the nagware that comes with them isn't ready either. And outside of all of that, if something goes wrong with the system, I'd rather have a manual control backup rather than just wait for it to crash into something.

 

[Crasher]

All the trains on London's DLR are self driving, and I believe that's also true on the Elizabeth Line.

But that is a tiny minority and those systems were built to be unmanned, the legacy systems have unions to contest with.

 

[Crasher]

 

[lykuno]

Hopefully not a repost ...

 

[lykuno]

Fifty Years of an Icon: Polo Project Drift -- The Film

 

[lykuno]

Toyota ... It has that human touch!

 

[lykuno]

Porsche GT3 & ACR Viper on Tail of the Dragon ...

From the Viper's interior view ...

 

[TTT]

Toyota ... It has that human touch!

Toyota, the car which drains its 12V auxiliary to death, if you leave the car 3 weeks in the parking. Been there already. Brand new car, 10 years warranty. 5-6-7 times already in the dealer. What a poor show. Never a Toyota again. So glad I got rid of it.