1999 Audi A6 2.8L - 17746 16684-7 doesn't make sense

   #1  

dhoerl

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I was driving at a highway speed pulled into a gas station, and my car all of a sudden started running poorly and the check engine light came on, then blinked! Had never seen it blink!

I looked up all the codes - 17746 says its the G40 sensor, and the Bentley's manual shows that on the driver's side back of the engine head.

But but but - those cylinders are marked 4,5, and 6. The other error codes are shown as cylinder 1,2 and 3.

The car runs but really strugges at idle. The left side of the engine (passenger side) seems to be making more mechanical noise than the right (drivers) side.

I'm going to get new cam sensors (if one died after 20 years the other is probably not going to last much longer either). But - why doesn't the info from vag-com correlate???

EDIT: Drove the car around while monitoring Engine Group 15 - Cylinder 1-3 misfires. When I go from idle to 15 MPH the numbers of all 3 shoot into the hundreds.
 
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PetrolDave

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It might be helpful if you could post the Auto-Scan.
 
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dhoerl

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Code:
Monday,01,July,2019,14:34:30:11064
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows XP x86
VCDS Version: 17.1.3.0
Data version: 20170320 DS267.7
www.Ross-Tech.com


Mileage: 286290km-177892mi   Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 4B - Audi A6/S6/RS6/allroad C5 (1998 > 2005)
Scan: 01 02 03 06 08 15 16 17 18 22 34 35 36 37 45 55 56 57 65 67
          75 76 77
 
   Mileage: 286290km-177892miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 078-907-551-AHA.lbl
   Part No: 4D0 907 551 AH
   Component: 2.8L V6/5V  MOTR AT D03  
   Coding: 06252
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 6CDDD5231CA0CF2125-4A08

9 Faults Found:
17746 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) 
            P1338 - 35-00 - Open or Short to Plus
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
            P0300 - 35-10 -  - Intermittent
16685 - Cylinder 1 
            P0301 - 35-10 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16687 - Cylinder 3 
            P0303 - 35-10 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16686 - Cylinder 2 
            P0302 - 35-10 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
            P0300 - 35-00 - 
16685 - Cylinder 1 
            P0301 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16687 - Cylinder 3 
            P0303 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16686 - Cylinder 2 
            P0302 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
Readiness: 0010 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 927 156 G
   Component: AG5 01V 2.8l5V  USA 8509  
   Coding: 00000
   Shop #: WSC 00000  
   VCID: 2B5F163FD92E08196C-4A08

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 8E0-614-111-EDS.lbl
   Part No: 8E0 614 111 A
   Component: ABS/EDS 5.3 QUATTRO D00  
   Shop #: BB 24334  
   VCID: 1C3DC5E38C80FFA115-5038

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 4B0-959-655-AI8.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 959 655 H
   Component: Airbag Front+Seite 0002  
   Coding: 00106
   Shop #: WSC 02324  
   VCID: 356B30470F6A4EE90A-50C8

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 4B0-919-xxx-17.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 919 930 RX
   Component: C5-KOMBIINSTR. VDO D18   
   Coding: 07262
   Shop #: WSC 08087  
   VCID: 0F27A2AF4D76543960-5038

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 35: Centr. Locks        Labels: 4B0-962-258.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 962 258 J
   Component: Central Lock/Alarm  D32  
   Coding: 15885
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 30650153F0086BC159-4E0C

7 Faults Found:
01371 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Driver's Side 
            35-00 -  - 
01572 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Passenger Side 
            35-00 -  - 
01370 - Alarm triggered by Interior Monitoring 
            35-00 -  - 
00955 - Key 1 
            09-10 - Adaptation Limit Surpassed - Intermittent
00956 - Key 2 
            09-10 - Adaptation Limit Surpassed - Intermittent
01574 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Rear Right 
            35-00 -  - 
01573 - Alarm triggered by Door Contact Switch; Rear Left 
            35-00 -  - 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr        Labels: None
   Part No: 4B0 959 760 A
   Component: Sitzmemory          D05  
   VCID: 2B5F163FD92E08196C-4A08

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 45: Inter. Monitor        Labels: 4B0-951-173.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 951 173 
   Component: Innenraumueberw.    D03  
   Coding: 00001
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 60C5B113E0689B4189-4A52

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio        Labels: 8D0-035-1xx-56.lbl
   Part No: 4B0 035 186 A
   Component:  Radio              D02  
   Coding: 00205
   Shop #: WSC 02325  
   VCID: 1E39CFEB9A9CEDB1FB-4A20

No fault code found.

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 06:21)--------------------------
 
   #4  

dhoerl

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Done! See additional info posted.
 
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Uwe

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G40 is normally the cam position sensor for bank 1, which I would think is the bank that has cylinders 1, 2, and 3.

On two-bank engines like your V6, there may be a second cam position sensor for bank 2 as well. If so, it would usually be designated as G163.

-Uwe-
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Diagnostic stack maybe incorrectly assigned but I think is correct & stack is within controller & as a possible error from the OEM, this would not be VCDS because VCDS only reports what ECU displays.


Probably time to take VC off and investigate the shoes on the cam tensioner adjusters, dont run engine further until inspected if you hear a noise & for fear of damaging a valve.
 
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dhoerl

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Thanks - will do!
 
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dhoerl

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Jacke does it again! I replaced the can sensor, same codes when running. Then pulled the cover and lo and behold:

 
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NZDubNurd

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You could have gotten a few more miles out of that! :D

Haha! Good save Jack! :thumbs: That was going to become a MUCH bigger problem, very soon!
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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I first tried here but the diagnostic spirits were unrepresentative.....dam new diagnostic board scanner enhanced doesn't work.




Than I just thought, well this has happened before, so what is the likelihood of it being shear repetition statistically?

:p

Good thing the MIL came on huh?
 
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vwtech

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dhoerl, Glad Jack pointed you in right direction.

But in the future when determining the side of engine you are referring to. Put yourself in the driver seat! Not looking at the engine!

"The car runs but really struggles at idle. The left side of the engine (passenger side) seems to be making more mechanical noise than the right (drivers) side."

That is backwards. Driver side is left. Pass side is right.

Just imagine yourself sitting in the driver seat when trying to explain what side of car you are referring to.
Can save you a lot of trouble in the future. Really save you when ordering parts.

Good Luck
 
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HMC

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dhoerl, Glad Jack pointed you in right direction.

But in the future when determining the side of engine you are referring to. Put yourself in the driver seat! Not looking at the engine!

"The car runs but really struggles at idle. The left side of the engine (passenger side) seems to be making more mechanical noise than the right (drivers) side."

That is backwards. Driver side is left. Pass side is right.

Just imagine yourself sitting in the driver seat when trying to explain what side of car you are referring to.
Can save you a lot of trouble in the future. Really save you when ordering parts.

Good Luck
Unless it is RHD!
Regards HMC
 
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NZDubNurd

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Perhaps we should start using "Hubwise" and "Widdershins", so the LHD/RHD won't be an issue and everyone will clearly know what we mean?
 
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vwtech

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I am just a coal cracker from PA.
But maybe it's me?
When in a right hand drive car is a left or right turn actually different?

Didn't think so....

Good Luck
 
   #16  

Larry Manton

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Nz, now I am lost, never heard of widdershin, probably wont change my life much if I knew
LOL.

LARIMORE
 
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HMC

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I am just a coal cracker from PA.
But maybe it's me?
When in a right hand drive car is a left or right turn actually different?

Didn't think so....

Good Luck
No, but "That is backwards. Driver side is left. Pass side is right." could be.:)
Regards HMC
 
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Dr Sheldon

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No, but "That is backwards. Driver side is left. Pass side is right." could be.:)
Regards HMC
Here in the UK Drivers side is on the Right. And if a passenger sat directly behind the driver then we could say that the RIGHT of the car (When Stood Behind it Looking at it) Is the Drivers side and the passenger side and this would hold water.

May I suggest it better to use the terminology LEFT or RIGHT in this forum as it is aimed at both RHD & LHD Countries.

Back to this car.

17746 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40)
P1338 - 35-00 - Open or Short to Plus

Being Anal now but that reads to me as the ECU is pushing out either a 5 or 12v bias voltage on the signal wire and the G40 is not pulling it to ground. The ECU will not be able to differentiate between a broken wire (OPEN) or Short To Plus because it is always at PLUS so possibly shorted. The ECU does know that it is NOT short to NEG. All this is in the ECU for Fault Detection and Reporting.

Add the Misfires in this car and one hopefully would dig a bit deeper as a faulty Cam Sensor may do many bad things but wont cause the misfires on just one bank.

So why the misleading Fault Code ?

I would have expected something like:

Definition of check engine code P0341:
Generic (Common for all car manufacturers):
Camshaft position (CMP) sensor A, bank 1 – range/performance problem

Not a big deal as I have a Pico Scope with WPS to deal with this sort of thing non intrusively but the answer to this sort of conundrum is good knowledge and education for me.
 
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dhoerl

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tldr; Good news! The car is now back to its normal self!

What I did:
- put the car into the "service position", meaning, pulled the bumper cover off and pulled the front section out 4" so I could get at the crank
- rotated the crank until it was at TDC and exhaust cam was showings mark aligned with the arrow on the head
- installed the crank plug to hold the crank at TDC no matter what

Observed that intake cam was off by one link!

- attempted to get the cam chain tensioner (CCT) compressor tool installed, but could not as bottom had rotated and could not get it threaded
- loosened the CCT
- removed the intake cam sensor from front of engine
- removed the exhaust bearing just below the CCT (to allows me to better rotate the CCT)
- completely loosened the intake crank removing all bearing caps
- tried to get the CCT and intake cam out but failed
- loosened the exhaust cam bearings (per spec), removing the back 4 caps

The exhaust cam rises a few inches now, and with that slop was finally able to remove the intake cam and CCT. Poked around and removed as much of the shredded shoes as I could find, which was probably only one shoe at best.

Both shoes were gone, and the top surfaces scored by the chain. Chain bottom was smooth so did not replace it.
Had bought replacement shoes on Amazon (2 day delivery!). Filed down the CCT mating surfaces until it was clear that the shoes would fit, then pressed in one side and used a rubber mallet to tap in the other side until it was clear proper mating.

The #%^&%^&# metal seal that goes under the CCT never stays seated for me and always moves around when re-intalling. So this time I used a small amount of gasket sealer under it, put the CCT over it (with no chain), and lightly tightened it - left it an hour to cure. Finally, removed the CCT, and fiddled with the intake cam, chain, and CCT until I got the proper link spacing and was able to get the intake cam back in position (this takes a while!).

- re-install the bearing caps on both cams, and lightly torque them down going back and forth using a small amount of torque on each cap until both were more or less seated
- verified that I had 14 links between each cam (16 if you count the link above each timing marker), then torqued both cams to spec using the proper "start at inside and work to the outside" spec
- removed the crank plug
- rotated the crank two full turns to verify that all was well!

Note: since all oil had leaked out of the CCT, the chain would move high then low when I was manually turning the crank. This bothered me, and I really wanted to crank the engine for a few seconds to get oil back into it before starting, but I couldn't find a way to disable starting. I sort of recall that you can remove one or more of the relays somewhere, but at this point I was tired and it was late Sunday, so I hoped for the best.

- double checked every cam related bolt I had touched with the torque wrench, to insure I had in fact gotten to every bolt earlier (I had)
- re-installed the valve cover and dabbing gasket sealer on the four corners both before and after installing the gasket
- tongued the gasket down, and re-installed the intake cam timing sensor.

Put everything else back, took car off jack stands, and started it. No codes! Drove it around the block at 25 MPH, no codes! No unusual noise, although it seemed the sounds from left and right valve cover slightly different. Drove another 5 miles or so to the local strip mall, then back. Opened hood with engine running, now the sounds from both valve covers over their respective CCTs is identical.

NOTE: while installing the crank plug may seem overkill, I wasn't sure when I started whether I'd need to remove the timing chain to do this job. Also, I was not sure if it was possible for the exhaust cam to shift while loosing it. It probably isn't, and I was probably over cautious (and spent another 2 hours removing/installing the bumper cover), but before I cranked the engine I wanted to be 100% sure that the cams were properly installed. YMMV.
 
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   #20  

Uwe

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May I suggest it better to use the terminology LEFT or RIGHT in this forum as it is aimed at both RHD & LHD Countries.
I realize this is something of a pedantic digression, but "left" and "right" aren't always the appropriate terminology. If you look at a list of VAG's fault code texts (which I've done at times until my eyes were bleeding), many are "left" and "right" but others are "driver side" and "passenger side". The reason for this is that some things actually do move with the position of the driver's seat depending on whether the car is a LHD or RHD layout. Things like airbags, front door control modules and so on...

-Uwe-
 
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