2020 US Presidential Election

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   #961  

HMC

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While I am reluctant to get involved in in another country's democratic machinations, while most of the rest of the world looked on incredulously these high ranking Republicans allowed a dangerous egotist with scant regard for the truth, carry on for years.
Regards HMC
 
   #962  

Uwe

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McConnell is doing his best to destroy the Republican Party.

MAGA / America First are not going away, and without them, the Republican Party has no base.

-Uwe-
 
   #963  

DV52

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McConnell is doing his best to destroy the Republican Party.

@Uwe: With the deepest respect - I suspect that any efforts by McConnell to destroy the Republican party will pale into insignificance compared to the reign of the 45th President!!! But you may be correct; perhaps the lasting legacy of Mr Trump will be the morphing of Republicans into splinter-parties - interesting, are the days of a 2 x party system in America finished and is this necessarily a bad thing?

Don
 
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   #964  

Uwe

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are the days of a 2 x party system in America finished and is this necessarily a bad thing?
Unclear. In the ~230-some years that this Republic has existed, there have never been more than two viable parties for any length of time. However, on more than one occasion, a new party has risen out of the ashes of an old one. You'll find a cursory overview here.

-Uwe-
 
   #965  

Jack@European_Parts

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   #966  

Jack@European_Parts

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McConnell is doing his best to destroy the Republican Party.

Indeed!
Really glad I dont vote!

520032f96d5786e46fa10eaae117b90b.jpg
 
   #967  

DV52

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@Jack@European_Parts: Please stop saying that you don't vote - it's not a badge of honor. Be part of the solution, not part of the disaffected!!

It seems that the Democrats has its 10 x disciples!! Perhaps Ms Cheney is the early candidate for leader of the first of the Republican splinter-parties?
Don
 
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   #968  

Jack@European_Parts

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@Jack@European_Parts: Please stop saying that you don't vote - it's not a badge of honor. Be part of the solution, not part of the disaffected!!

It seems that the Democrats has its 10 x disciples!! Perhaps Ms Cheney is the early candidate for leader of the first of the Republican splinter-parties?
Don
https://www.usnews.com/news/politic...y-10-house-republicans-back-trump-impeachment

I am a businessman that has been thrown some monkey wrenches in the game of life, I take risks being a doer, not a voter that asks others to do what I should do first!
Like anything if I want something done and done right, you best do that shit yourself right?
Local votes ........maybe.........Electoral votes no fucking way!

 
   #969  

Bruce

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Jack is not alone. When we think about this election: about the 66.3% of the population of this country participated - stated as an all time high by the Washington Post, at the end, the divide between people is huge. 75 million voted for the Republicans.. The Democrats carried the day with 80 Million going their way. 91 million chose to sit on the sidelines.

The problem going forward is that the 75 Million feel they are no longer represented by a fair and properly elected electorate. We have no idea what the feeling and view of 91 million more might be. I predicted violence before the election and many scoffed at me. Then it happened and we were shocked. If this country does not find a way to mend this divide, we can expect more. The "Insurection on the Capitol" as it is being labeled in the media, may just be the trigger event of a civil war.

In 1859, it was an insurrection in a unknown - unheard of - little town called Harper's Ferry, West Virginia, that kicked off the conflict leading to five years of bloody civil war. Could it be that the riot on the steps of the Capitol is the trigger? Seems some have seen this coming. Gun sales are off the charts. Why is that? First time gun ownership has increased tremendously in the last days. Are they all Republicans?

Do any really believe that impeaching a President with 7 days left in office makes good sense? Sure, what he did pushed people to act. Clearly what he did pushed the wrong buttons. Words matter. Words from a sitting President really matter. But what good is served by impeaching him? He has no political future unless he can fund his running for office totally on his own. Maybe he can....

The left is not listening to the people on the right. The right is not listening to the people on the left. The actions of both sides leaves no room for reconciliation. If we do not find a means to come together, the future of this country and likely much of the world is going to be dark.

The United States of America is sick and is dying. When will the people wake up to force the electorate to make the changes needed? If they wake, can they bring change without violence? Or has the special interests corrupted the system to such an extent that only a violent reset will bring change? These are the questions that bother my sleep. Pandemic? --- pfff - ain't nothing compared to mess we call the United States of America. "United" is an oxymoron these days.
 
   #970  

Uwe

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@Jack@European_Parts: Please stop saying that you don't vote
Please stop trying to suppress speech in my forum; thank you.

I didn't vote for many years, and I doubt I will again in the future.

-Uwe-
 
   #971  

Jack@European_Parts

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Want to make the vote fair?

I say do it in each State & with each State getting one vote & add up each vote by County & each County gets one vote of a popular vote and implement an ID requirement.

This way each area of each State & by County, the States People get a say and large population areas can't take the vote by mere numbers of a promised hand out!

There is the problem solved in a nutshell..........is it not a fair idea?

NY has 62 counties as an example......add them all up and winner takes all of the one vote.

There are 62 counties in New York. Five of those counties are coterminous with the five boroughs of New York City and do not have functioning county governments. These counties are instead subject to the jurisdiction of the city. New York City is considered the county seat for each of these counties.
 
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   #972  

Uwe

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Want to make the vote fair?
Yes. Unless a person has a damn good excuse, everyone votes in person, shows ID when they sign in, and dips their thumb in indelible ink when they're done. For those few who do have a good reason not to vote in person, you do real signature matching. This is easy, whereas your one vote per county determining one vote per state stuff would require a radical amendment to the Constitution that has zero chance of being introduced, much less passing.

-Uwe-
 
   #974  

DV52

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Please stop trying to suppress speech in my forum; thank you.

@Uwe: hmmm............ Really- I must protest.

I suspect that you are one of the most intelligent people in this place and of course it's your forum/your Bar (so you decide who gets to participate) - but Shirley you can't be serious?

Even under the broadest of definitions - how is it possible to reasonably interpret my request that a citizen in a free democracy exercises his right to vote as an attempt to suppress free speech?

And quite apart from the curious (and frankly, offensive) suggestion, there's a palpable inconsistency in your reply - IMO of course; I'm sure that you don't view your simple sentance above to be an attempt to suppress speech, so how can my request of Jack be viewed as having this intention?

Although I'm firmly of the opinion that your suggestion is unreasonable and because this is your Forum/your Bar - please be assured that there was no conspiracy in my response, no hidden motive and certainly there was NO endeavor to suppress the first amendment right in your constitution. I'm flabbergasted that my reply could in any way be viewed as an attempt to stifle free speech - Unbelievable!!

We ALL have our beliefs and convictions and in our vast numbers, it's these things that define us as individuals. Our beliefs and convictions are the ballast in our lives that either center us, or become mill-stones that blind us to the views of others. I've tried to live my life on this fragile blue planet with the former view and the suppression of free speech is an abhorrent anathema to my philosophy (and in truth, I'm sufficiently self-reliant that it really doesn't matter to me if I'm not believed in this place!!)

Don

I didn't vote for many years, and I doubt I will again in the future.
-Uwe-
Yes, I'm aware that you (and Jack) do not participate in the democratic process on election day - athough I'm surprised to read that you will likely abandon future election day voting. Presumably, you would recommend the same approach to your fellow citizens in PA and perhaps you might even sanction the extension of the practice to other areas of America -all men are created equal under your democracy, so why not?

It would certainly make for an interesting election result if there was wide-spread adoption of your approach across the entire country given that normally, more than 50% of the populous already don't vote!! But heck, why not increase the non-participation rate in elections - I'm sure that every fellow citizen can find many more reasons for rationalizing that their vote doesn't count on election day.

But of course these are mostly rhetoric questions because I know that you are a firm believer in your country's democracy - therefore you are only able to adopt your stance because a sufficiently large number of your fellow citizens DO vote on election day! In very real sense and depending on your view, your approach is either symbiotic, or parasitic in that it rides on the collective backs of your fellow citizens that don't adapt your approach!!

Anyhow, notwithstanding our different democratic systems, as citizens of our respective democracies we both have EXACTLY the same right (albeit not the same obligation) to vote. So I believe that I'm qualified to make comment on this matter.

Unlike both you and Jack, I happen to believe the right to vote is so sacrosanct, so pivotal to a healthy democracy that it should be exercised on election day by every citizen who enjoys the freedoms of that democracy. This is not a question about compulsory voting - it transcends the underlying mechanism for elections.

IMO voting on election day is a demonstration by each citizen that they don't and won't take for granted a right that was mostly won through the deaths of previous citizens; it honors their sacrifice and it acknowledges the price that they paid (and it registers each citizen's vote)! I know that you both won't agree, but for me - there can be no excuse, no convenient deductive reasoning that is more important on election day (other than for reasons as legally prescribed- of course)

Now once more, I know that both you and Jack don't agree - but my plea that Jack considers my views can in no way whatsoever be reasonably interpreted as an attempt to stifle freedom of speech (and most certainly it can not be because our views on voting on election day are not the same)!!

Don
 
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   #975  

Jack@European_Parts

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Don

How is UNIC voting worth anything, if it doesn't make or is NOT required to be used to make an ultimate choice & about what you are allegedly voting for?

It makes the process no dick with no balls to match and as smooth as a Ken doll?

Like an alimony check!


 
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   #976  

DV52

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Don

How is UNIC voting worth anything, if it doesn't make or is NOT required to be used to make an ultimate choice & about what you are allegedly voting for?

It makes the process no dick with no balls to match and as smooth as a Ken doll?

Like an alimony check!


UNIC? I'm not familiar with the term (is it a local acronym?) - I suspect that you are referring to the plurality voting system that's used to elect POTUS in the United States (as distinct to the relative majority method in the United Kingdom).

My understanding is that the winner-take-all character of the U.S. system favors the home-grown two-party system that has developed there over the years. I think it was you who told me that in the case of Congress, if a party’s candidate receives a bare majority of votes, that candidate wins the seat, and there is no second place. So what? That's the system that's used in your country. In other countries, parties organize to promote a particular political or economic ideology such as socialism, communism, authoritarianism, or capitalism. In Australia, the parties represent a given economic interest, such as our Labor party.

In any event, it doesn't matter what voting system is used in any country, they ALL have their foibles and these oddities certainly don't expunge the need to vote on election day - if your position is that Jack (and therefore ALL Americans) should only vote if the underpinning voting system has no "odd outcomes" under any scenario (even a likely one), then indeed democracy should be abandoned entirely for the Medieval alternative (which is rule by the strongest)!!

And how do you know on election day how your vote will be treated - before the votes are tallied? Sure you might have statistics from past elections - but that's the point of elections; it's the chance to change government!!

As I know that you will agree, democracy is a precious and fragile gift that has been hard won at a terrible price in most countries. It's also a desiderate gift that many in countries that don't have a democracy value highly and desperately desire. Most democracies don't ask much of their citizens; just the opportunity one day every 3-4 years to record their views regarding which party should form government. It ain't much of an ask IMO compared to the benefits that citizens enjoy

IMHO, all those who believe that it's OK to deliberately abandon the democratic process on election day do so at their peril. Ignoring democracy on the very day that it is meant to be practiced by the populous must have consequences!

Perhaps at least some of the blame that @Bruce describes above for America's current woes can be traced back to the successive election of unrepresentative governments due in the main because of your country's low participation on election day - maybe (just a vague supposition)?

As I have pleaded before - please don't be part of the criticism; be part of the solution

Don
 
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   #977  

Andy

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A story in two parts:


"Anti-Trump founder of radical left-wing group ‘Insurgence USA’ John Sullivan incited insurgence of U.S. Capitol," said the text over one image shared widely on Facebook. The post originated on Parler, a social media platform targeted to conservatives. The post was flagged as part of Facebook’s efforts to combat false news and misinformation on its News Feed.

... and then:


After the crowd broke through the last barricade, and as SULLIVAN and the others approach the Capitol Building, SULLIVAN can be heard in the video saying at various points: “There are so many people. Let’s go. This shit is ours! Fuck yeah,” “We accomplished this shit. We did this together. Fuck yeah! We are all a part of this history,” and “Let’s burn this shit down.”

You'd think Politifact would post a retraction or something?

This guy is a psychopath and should be charged with murder:


Edit: Youtube removed the video "This video has been removed for violating YouTube's Terms of Service."

Because that makes it disappear from the internet forever. :facepalm:

Let's try this:

 
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   #978  

Bruce

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Perhaps at least some of the blame that @Bruce describes above for America's current woes can be traced back to the successive election of unrepresentative governments due in the main because of your country's low participation on election day - maybe (just a vague supposition)?

Totally agree with you Don (@DV52). Despite the fact that I feel my vote has not really made a difference, I know not participating and becoming one of the 91 million who did not state their choice, is worse. Our system is built on participation of the people. When we disengage, our apathy gives the elite exactly what they prefer: the freedom to ignore the people.

The President does not matter to me as much as the Representatives and Senators mater. The ones making the decisions that most affect my life are the ones in the lesser positions. Congress is supposed make the law. The President is supposed to guide an agenda and implement the law Congress writes. In recent years, Congress spends its time fighting between political agendas and they do not enact law. Presidents have taken it upon themselves to use Executive Order to enact legislation and control. The Presidents have been frustrated that the Congress cannot make decisions so they began doing the Congressional job. Congress fails to exercise their check and balance calling Executive Orders into question and challenging these through the courts. (Many EOs seem to me, a non-lawyer, to be unconstitutional over-reaching, and moving the Presidency closer and closer to a dictatorship.) My Point? The system is broken!

What stops a President from declaring elections unnecessary? Invalid? We did not get there this time.. but we came close -no?

I have stated that impeaching Trump serves no purpose. As I think more about that, perhaps it serves the purpose that Congress is using it's check on the Presidency - letting future Presidents know they will not be above or beyond the law; that they will be and are held accountable for their actions and their words. We can argue about the witch hunt and all the rhetorical issues as to who is right or who is wrong... but perhaps the value of the impeachment process is that it exists and is in place to stop any who think they can do whatever they please. Perhaps making an example is good?

The problem is that the process has been abused also... the process has been invoked for political gain. More mess....

I agree with your summation Don (@DV52), if we do not participate in the process, no matter how flawed, then we do not have a chance to implement change, no matter how minimal that chance may seem. It is this belief that has me at the polls often... not always every year.. but usually every 2 years. Often in our area, the local election for those who govern our towns and townships, the candidates run un-opposed. In those elections, where there is little or no choice, I may opt to sit it out. I have missed elections owing to travel. For major elections where travel has me away from home, I have participated via a mail in ballot.

Don, participation in riots, insurrections, coups - violent actions - also can bring about change. When so many feel dis-enfranchised, when so many decide it is not worth their time to vote, to be in the political process, there is the alternative that they can choose to act and to overthrow. Many of us believe the "right to bear arms" comes from the founding fathers of this country so that if our governing leaders are taking the direction of our nation down a path we do not believe is right, then the right to bear arms gives those citizens a right to say enough! Some of us believe that right is one of the checks we have on the governing leaders. It is a last resort. It is a very final and harsh means to implement change. The outcome is anything but certain.

Our leaders must know and understand - the American people are not happy. Trillions of dollars being handed out is not fixing the problems. People are not stupid. We all know who pays the bill.

I mentioned in my earlier post that many Americans are buying weapons for the first time. While I do not advocate violent change and I do not plan to participate in violent change, people are afraid. People are becoming highly motivated. They are no longer apathetic - the position the politicians would like to keep Joe Average American. Politicians have decided to wear bullet resistant vests.. this morning on the news, several congressional members spoke to news media that they are now wearing vests. Such fear is not good.

Do any think maybe Congress is hearing the dissatisfaction of the population now? The riots earlier this year did not touch the Congress members.. in the majority, they didn't really care about the riots except for the political gains they could make being on one side or the other. Is it possible as they wear their vests that maybe they are beginning to hear that the American people are frustrated and heavily divided? Will they listen in time to make change and quell the angst?

I remain in the mind set of my previous post: Civil War - Civil Unrest - is on the horizon. No matter how many protections the government takes, if the people rise up, they (the government) do not have the resources to stop it. For the good of all, we better find a leader who will work with both sides and with those who do not participate to bring this country back together. I fear time is running out. Do you think Mr. Biden is the one?
 
   #979  

DV52

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Do you think Mr. Biden is the one?

@Bruce: Many many years ago when my abiding fascination with economics principles first began (in truth, it's always been the true love of the intellect part of my life - I should never have gone into engineering), I read a small book which contained the translation of an essay by that most brilliant of Italians Vilfredo Federico Damaso Pareto. I'm sure that Americans have heard of the Pareto Principle; being the 80/20 rule - which was built on the Italian genius's observation that 80% of the Italian wealth was owned by 20% of the population (not much has changed - in fact it's gotten worse!!). I've since lost the book and I wish that I hadn't!!

Anyhow, the central premise in Pareto's essay was that there never has been and there never will be a rebellion that can truely be described as a "popular uprising" - because sociopolitical ambitions within the established community will never permit it (even in a fundamental revolt).

Pareto's hypothesis was that regardless of how societal rebellions are portrayed, they are in truth ALWAYS the result of the ambitions of the displaced elite in the community.

I really hope that your country is not heading down the path of systemic civil unrest, but if it is - perhaps you might remember Pareto's words and look amongst the chaos for members of America's elite who rise to the top, over the corpses of the proletariat (excuse my use of a Marxist-like description in a reply to an American). I suggest that the identity of those that are truly controlling the civil unrest will be found amongst these names!!

I know that some in this place will not agree - but Pareto's hypothesis came to mind (for me) as I saw Trump's message to his supporters in the storming of the Capitol Building.

Now, as to your question above - I think that the ONLY way I can respond in this place is to suggest that no-one knows! However, the one thing that I'm certain about given the evidence of his behavior is that the Republican candidate most definitely isn't the one (notwithstanding that 71 million of your compatriots believed that he deserved a 2nd term and 33% of eligable voters thought that the democratic exercise wasn't worth their participation))!!

Don
 
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dieseldub

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McConnell is doing his best to destroy the Republican Party.

MAGA / America First are not going away, and without them, the Republican Party has no base.

-Uwe-

I'm sure McConnell sees it the other way, saving his party from MAGA and Qanon absurd conspiracies. Either way, it's a fracturing of the right and Republicans will either hold strong with their traditional conservatism and lose their base or begin to conform to some of the MAGA crowd's desires, either way, the party is fracturing.

From my point of view it's rather surprising because the Democrats/liberals are traditionally the group that has a hard time coalescing around a primary set of goals, because they're always coming up with new things to tackle, where Republicans have traditionally been very good about sticking to their guns on a number of very specific items, for better or worse, and also generally just saying "No" to the democrats.

Now, let me start with the handful of items that are understandable about the MAGA movement. Wanting to be America-first and specifically focusing on ensuring we keep good paying jobs here and/or even bringing back manufacturing jobs lost overseas due to trade policies that offer very little in the way of competitive protection from being undercut by much cheaper overseas labor. I grew up in the Mid-West (Michigan, specifically--the center of the American automotive manufacturing and headquarters of what we used to call "The Big 3."). I very much understand where the crowd is coming from in that respect.

But it becomes difficult for someone well informed to want to jump in with the crowd when it's also riddled with wild, easily disproven conspiracy theories and downright hateful rhetoric with little basis in reality.

If you find yourself at a protest, on one side of you, you find someone with a "Camp Auschwitz" shirt that also says "6 million wasn't enough" and on another side someone waving the Confederate flag or maybe has some form of Nazi symbolism, you might be on the 'wrong side.'

If MAGA is to succeed in any way, they're going to have to rid their own movement of the conspiracies, the lies and the racists. At which point, what kind of numbers are you left with?

Whereas if they can come to the table with intelligent, well-spoken representatives that outline actionable plans to simply get and keep decent paying jobs here for the masses, they'll find themselves a lot of mainstream people willing to join them. But when there's so much crazy attached to your movement, it will remain in the fringes and eventually be put out by the mainstream who won't tolerate hate, lies and conspiracies.

There is a LOT for the right to reckon with right now. And what's really astounding to me is how many on the left have been saying for years they want to create new, good-paying jobs, provide better worker protections and healthcare, but the obstruction from Republicans ensures very little of their plans see the light of day, and then the right turn that around so they can say "SEE?! They don't do anything for you!" When all along, it was the right blocking any of their attempts to get it done.

But, I understand, most of my hard-working friends in the Mid West don't want a handout. They want good jobs they can be proud of and be able to support their families. If the MAGA movement can eschew the crazy and focus solely on being the party of jobs for the working class, they might stand a chance. Until then, they're handing over the country to the democrats to attempt to bolster their welfare and attempt to create new "green energy jobs." And that's not necessarily a horrible thing, but I can understand where my downtrodden Mid Western friends would much prefer the pride of a good job rather than a handout with very little hope for upward mobility. Even the left wants that, their message just gets lost in the constant barrage and shaping of narratives from the right simply because the left has a different philosophy on how to accomplish this.
 
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