2020 US Presidential Election

   #641  

DV52

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Don, I have lost faith in the ability of our government to hold reliable independent elections where The People are assured that only one vote by one person is counted. I believe both parties would like to corrupt the mail in systems to have their way. I believe they are doing all they can to corrupt the system to gain their advantage. The Covid pandemic has given them the tool to pervert the elections and break the trust of the people completely.

Do not be surprised when after this election this country breaks down into civil unrest over this issue. You think the race issue is a big deal? I think this election will cause far greater harm. The divide is deep. The United States of America is dying... all that remains is for the shooting to begin.

Proper civil discourse is ended and will not soon be restored. The passions on both sides run high. There has only been one other time when the passions ran as they do today. It was the late 1850's. In 1860, the shooting began. Five years later, the Northern Federalists as they were called prevailed because they had industry. The Southern Confederates, who believed that the Constitution granted States the right to determine governance in the local communities, rejected the concept that a strong central government was the right solution for the people. Most think the issue was Slavery. Slavery was the trigger. Slavery was the point around which people could rally. The issue was never about slaves. The North was happy to accept the freed slaves and move them into ghettos where they could not be equal to the white northerners. One form of slavery was ended and a new form was created.

The point? When the rhetoric divides to the degree we are now divided, the form of government that is in place will end and be replaced after the shooting ends. Yes, I am expecting us to move closer to armed conflict over the next 4 years. I don't know what the trigger will be... but it is all but set up.

Despite a highly educated public, history is about to repeat (as it has almost since man appeared in this place we call the world). The only variable I see is the time until the first shots are fired. Maybe I am an old fool who has lost his grip on what is going on. Maybe the Covid has depressed me to the point of giving up all hope.

No, I don't think so. I am engaged in the election process listening to both sides, trying to make an informed, intelligent and educated decision. It is hard to get proper information from both.

I'll be 65 on Inauguration day. I expect my birthday to be a very difficult day.
Bruce: wow - you paint a very disturbing picture indeed - I hope (I'd say "pray" if I was a believer) that your view of a dystopian American society post Nov 5, 2020 is grossly exaggerated! I disagree entirely!!

Of course, the Government of a country is vitally important to the way that the nation operates - but Americans seem to be such a resilient lot and I suspect (expect, really) that there is still much common good-will across the political voter divide.

Yes, the co-existence of COVID during the election process must have added a coffin-like pall over events and I too am bitterly disappointed that the wealthiest (and arguably, the most politically vibrant) country on the planet has presented those 2 x particular candidates as the best of their lot for the position of POTUS. And also yes, try as I have - I have never understood America's gun culture and its myopic zeal (which is pretty-much unique in the world) for an armed society

However, at its heart-the essence of your society shouldn't be any different from those of other first world countries who are trying to battle very similar issues. America, Americans and your fellow citizens are still the same folk that created your neighborhoods before Trump/Biden appeared on the political stage (and before COVID appeared); they still have the same societal value-sets and they still have the same motivations for their fellow citizens!!

Contrary to your view and fuzzy as it is, my crystal ball tells me that the future is good -I've absolutely no doubt that the next generation will be our salvation; they will learn from our mistakes and they will build on our successes!!

Now, as for being 65 on 20 January 2021 - please explain how this happened? What portent did your parents have for your birth-date and more importantly -how do you justify being so disgustingly young? :D

Don
 
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   #642  

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   #643  

DV52

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^^^ ^^ Jack: According to bookies.com and as @ 22nd October 2020 - Biden's odds of winning are 75% (cf Trump's 25%). Returns might be better than trading on the financial markets- maybe? :D

Don
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Trump will lose and a lot of Republican's will be devastated while the crocked cross is played.

NostraJackASS quatrain 11/3/2020

 
   #647  

Uwe

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Obama called those who disagreed with his policies, "Bitter Clingers"

Hillary Clinton called people who supported her opponent "A Basket of Deplorables".

Biden just called people who support his opponent "Chumps"


-Uwe-
 
   #649  

Jack@European_Parts

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What deep state baby wants, deep state baby gets?

The military industrial complex?

Progress at its best?

 
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Uwe

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Isn't it funny how this is a big story in other parts of the world, but the MSM in the USA pretends its not?



-Uwe-
 
   #651  

DV52

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Maybe. But will it be an honest election?
-Uwe-
@Uwe: A very good question indeed (at every democratic election - regardless of country)! But, it appears to have a "special" definition in 2020 because in the mind of some (many?), the term "honest" seems to depend predominantly on a whether the election result has a particular outcome.

10 of your past Presidents have not had a second term and the current incumbent doesn't have any better right to the role in the next 4 x years than the previous 44 x POTUSes. Nor does Trump have a better right to the position than Biden (or vice-a-versa).

Both candidates have very large egos (ain't nothing wrong with that - "ego is not a dirty word"). However, there will be a huge price to be paid by Americans and the rest of the world if "honest" is confused with "self-importance" (IMO as a foreigner, of course)!

Don


 
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   #652  

Uwe

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the term "honest" seems to depend predominantly on a whether the election result has a particular outcome.
No; in this context it means that the outcome isn't determined by improper/fraudulent votes.

-Uwe-
 
   #654  

Bruce

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DV52 Wrote:
Contrary to your view and fuzzy as it is, my crystal ball tells me that the future is good -I've absolutely no doubt that the next generation will be our salvation; they will learn from our mistakes and they will build on our successes!!
Time will tell Don. The move to division has been 30+ years in the making. The views of the two parties and the supporters of those parties are becoming entrenched to the point neither will listen to other. Just because an idea is initiated by the other party, the idea is rejected. That is my reason for pessimism. When our leaders fail to work together, when they look for ways to pervert thought and to demoralize, when winning the point for their team becomes the only goal, the system is broken and needs to be reset.

Those alive in the 1840's and 1850's could not, perhaps even would not, believe the divide would lead to an armed conflict. Yet it did. We did learn from that conflict but allow me to suggest that 180 years later, the lessons may have been forgotten. As has happened too often in human history, lessons learned require relearning. I fear we are in a time when a relearning cycle is going to be required to move forward. As I said, time will tell.

I welcome and accept your hope for it is my wish to be proven wrong. I do pray that the people of this great country come to their senses, working together with the respect they have shown in other generations, such that we might together continue the experiment and the dream the founders initiated. I am blessed to be a United States Citizen. I have received much. For that, I am most thankful.

Now, as for being 65 on 20 January 2021 - please explain how this happened? What portent did your parents have for your birth-date and more importantly -how do you justify being so disgustingly young? :D
I cannot answer what my parents might have done that my birthday should be a special day every 4 years. As to be "disgustingly young", I get the disgusting part... the young - not so much. ;)

Thank you for your compliment. I do still try to stay young of mind.
 
   #655  

PetrolDave

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The move to division has been 30+ years in the making. The views of the two parties and the supporters of those parties are becoming entrenched to the point neither will listen to other. Just because an idea is initiated by the other party, the idea is rejected.
That problem is not exclusive to the USA, it's something I have been feeling about UK politics for many years. I have used the phrase "yah boo politics" to describe this sort of behaviour where the "other" party is "always wrong". IMHO this does not serve the country well as my experience at senior level in business is that willingness to understand another opinion and to find an acceptable outcome which neither are 100% happy with but also find acceptable always produced a positive end result - and politics is just running a big company is it not?
 
   #656  

DV52

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That problem is not exclusive to the USA, it's something I have been feeling about UK politics for many years. I have used the phrase "yah boo politics" to describe this sort of behaviour where the "other" party is "always wrong". IMHO this does not serve the country well as my experience at senior level in business is that willingness to understand another opinion and to find an acceptable outcome which neither are 100% happy with but also find acceptable always produced a positive end result - and politics is just running a big company is it not?
@PetrolDave: hmm............ yes, the polarization of political views amongst citizens is a world wide phenomenon! My suspicion is that it is a consequence of the evolution of the two-party system in democratic countries (perhaps democracy has passed its used-by date?) and it's largely driven by the message that the parties, themselves deliver to voters.

There was a time (seems so long ago) when there was good-will between competing political parties; bi-partisan agreements were never common place, but they were at least possible and sometimes when the stakes were sufficiently important for the country, they were even successful!

In the 21st century, political good-will in 2 x party democracies seems to be as rare as rocking-horse shit!! The COVID pandemic is a perfect example where politics should have been less important than the desired heath outcome. But in many countries (no names mentioned), it was just too much for the political parties to set-aside their differences and to work together for the common-good. In fact, quite the opposite; in said countries, differences in views about appropriate health treatments became defined according to the political leanings of parties - quite extraordinary!!

Political parties are correctly seen as leaders in their communities and they shape public opinion -and voters are willing (some are even eager) to follow their example! Given the current trend and the myopic zeal of the major parties to win at elections no matter what the cost to the country - is it any wonder then that political good-will amongst citizens is also at an all-time low?

Don

PS: I would have liked to have you as my boss when you were "at senior level in business"!! :D
 
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DV52

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DV52 Wrote:


Time will tell Don. The move to division has been 30+ years in the making. The views of the two parties and the supporters of those parties are becoming entrenched to the point neither will listen to other. Just because an idea is initiated by the other party, the idea is rejected. That is my reason for pessimism. When our leaders fail to work together, when they look for ways to pervert thought and to demoralize, when winning the point for their team becomes the only goal, the system is broken and needs to be reset.

Those alive in the 1840's and 1850's could not, perhaps even would not, believe the divide would lead to an armed conflict. Yet it did. We did learn from that conflict but allow me to suggest that 180 years later, the lessons may have been forgotten. As has happened too often in human history, lessons learned require relearning. I fear we are in a time when a relearning cycle is going to be required to move forward. As I said, time will tell.

I welcome and accept your hope for it is my wish to be proven wrong. I do pray that the people of this great country come to their senses, working together with the respect they have shown in other generations, such that we might together continue the experiment and the dream the founders initiated. I am blessed to be a United States Citizen. I have received much. For that, I am most thankful.



I cannot answer what my parents might have done that my birthday should be a special day every 4 years. As to be "disgustingly young", I get the disgusting part... the young - not so much. ;)

Thank you for your compliment. I do still try to stay young of mind.
Bruce: yes indeed............ time will tell!!

As a final note until time reveals the truth about ours fears and expectations - I have to add that Trump's thinly veiled threat for civil unrest if a certain election outcome eventuates is the stuff of third world countries!!

My hope is that in a first world country like America where corruption is not systemic (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist) and where the population base is educated - such calls would be seen for what they are; the inappropriatly desperate plea of a displaced member of the political/financial elite to use the efforts of citizens for his own ends.

If it happens (and I hope that it doesn't happen) - it most certainly won't be what historians call a "popular uprising"!!

Don
 
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@PetrolDave
PS: I would have liked to have you as my boss when you were "at senior level in business"!! :D
Thanks I take that as a real compliment :D

My "management" training was at a company which realised that all employees are equally important (each is an important cog in the machinery of the company) so we behaved as leaders and coaches whose primary role was to develop every employee to the benefit of the company, not to act as dominant managers who feared those they were responsible for.
 
   #659  

Bruce

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my experience at senior level in business is that willingness to understand another opinion and to find an acceptable outcome which neither are 100% happy with but also find acceptable always produced a positive end result
It has also been my experience Dave. When I have worked on teams where all were included and ideas were pursued rather than just doing what we are told, we accomplished much much more. Further, all wanted the success of the idea to be the team's success. Top down styles tend to stymie creativity. Yet, as a small business owner, I also learned there were times where the boss had to say, "We are doing this my way." It's a balance.

My guess is that in large corporations, the only way to get full cooperation is the team style management. As much as one wants to do so, in a smaller business where resources simply cannot be left idle or wasted, the boss often has to exercise tighter non-participative control. Small businesses owing to their size simply cannot afford any inefficiency without the bottom line being hurt. In a small business the effect of non-accurate control is felt sooner and much more deeply.

I don't think government is just like a corporation. I think that in a corporation, more respect is required and is given. In politics, the players are free to behave however they choose to behave. There is no boss. Their careers are only controlled by the voters every few years. The political machines raise huge funds of money to keep their boy or girl in office so the party's clout can be maintained. Can you remember the last time a party pulled a member aside and disciplined them for their behavior? in a corporation, if one behaves badly, if one is not pulling with the rest, that one will be pushed aside or out. In politics, while one might be pushed aside, usually the "spin doctors" come to put a pretty face on the matter before the push is enacted.

I think Don may very well be correct: the two party political system needs to end.
 
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