2020 US Presidential Election

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Mike R

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Trump will be reelected assuming Biden is in fact the democratic nominee. The man is clearly senile.
 
   #303  

jyoung8607

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Is "extreme Trump Derangement Syndrome" a thing?
It's a term used by Trump supporters to label people who ask them to account for what they've done and what they're planning to do. It's sort of a blended Shaggy/Chewbacca Defense applied to political positions. The underlying sentiment is "I don't need to answer that because the person who's asking is Emmanuel Goldstein."
 
   #304  

Bruce

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So - with 6 months remaining before the US election (assuming of course that the election will still happen), what's the feeling amongst voters? Will the result be a referendum on Trump's covid performance -or is the pre-covid rhetoric by Republicans about their economic achievements still the central issue? And in a likely persisting covid community infection, will it matter who the Democrat candidate is?

Don
The Democrats will win the election. The country is becoming less tolerant of Mr. Trump's behavior. He is the one shooting himself in the foot. He has not risen to the challenge of leading in a crisis.

Consider history: whenever election occurred during a crisis, the siting President was not returned to office in that election. (At least this is what I recently read in an article. Not sure how far back they went in their research but it certainly jives with my memory of the last 44 years..)

Bidden will be president. I am not in favor of the Democrats winning. In the aftermath of this pandemic and given their "Trump Derangement Syndrome" as Uwe called it, the pendulum of standing will move far left of center. More socialist programs will be ushered in "to ease the pain of the economic collapse".

I am not one to support socialism. I don't see the leveling of income as a system that will work. It too has been corrupted by career politicians and income leveling has not occurred. Few have found ways to pay for the programs initiated. I said shortly after 9/11 when the government ushered in the Patriot Act that we had given up our freedom; that socialism would be the governing principles of the US. We are no longer a republic. We are no longer a representative government for all politicians have their own agenda and are only about the power they can control. They do not represent the US Citizen and taxpayer - they have not done so for years.

When in college in the '70's, the text in my political science class was titled, "The Irony of Democracy", the premise of which was that the elite choose to keep the common voter apathetic - that the elite will throw bones to keep the voter from becoming motivated such that the elite are left to do as they desire to further their power and their pocket. As an idealist 20 something at the time, the premise rankled. Sadly, the last 40 years have shown me that the text was spot on. We are living it.

The text went on to predict that like the Greeks and the Romans who both experimented with representative government and democracy, both eventually failed because the elected officials figured they could strip the public to line their own pockets. Eventually the system of government collapsed. While I don't see the USA collapsing in the next 20 years, all can agree we are on the downhill side of the run. The question is how steep is the downhill side and does it hold a cliff over which we will soon jump?

What hope then is there for my country that I love? What is it I could do to change things? A question I ask each and every night. At 64, is there something I might do to change the direction and choose a new path? Or has the momentum downhill become so large that there is no turning back? Railing against "what is" serves little purpose except to run us out of breath. Doing something would be the choice. But what is that something?

One suggestion: term limits on all officials. Yes, on the Judiciary, the Congress - both houses, and on the Presidency (already in place). Letting politicians remain in office working only to make sure they are elected again and again, is a fail on the part of the writers of our Constitution. Keeping Jurists on the bench forever gives them power to interpret law without changing with the times (not sure changing with the times is a great idea but ....) The writers were principled men (at least that is what many historians write - but of course that too is subject to opinion and conjecture) who could not conceive of the kind of person who now runs for office.. mind there are exceptions but the exceptions do not make a career of being in office in my experience. I'm mostly speaking of those who seek office for the power it brings them. By implementing term limits, careers as politicians will be eliminated.

The politicians will never enact such legislation. This must be forced on government by the people. How do we make that happen?

The other thing that needs to be thought about: the size of the bureaucracy. More that 33% of US Citizens derive the most significant portion of their income from the government. If memory serves, more than 20% of US citizens are directly employed by the government - deriving their entire income from their employment. Think about what that does to elections. Will those citizens vote for a party that would take away or change their livelihood? So does that not skew the election results in every election?

My point is that this block of citizens is far too large. Government services should not be so large IMHO. But who will fill the needs? Private sector? Really? No...

Bottom line, the US system of government is really broken and there are no easy answers. I am resigned to the fact that I will give up more and more of my "freedom" so that all might receive the same - socialism defined.

We have no choices in this election just like every other election in which I have voted.. Who sits at the top does not matter... The ball rolling down the hill just keeps rolling on, building momentum.

Have you thought about this? What country will rise and be the new world policemen? What country will do the humanitarian things the USA has done for the last 80 years? Maybe that country will do it better than the US did with less nonsense and self-serving underpinnings. I doubt any will rise to do it. But know this, the US is going down. The void will need to be filled. The time frame is not long now - certainly less than 50 years in my mind. No republic lasted 300 years. This one will not see 2076 and still be thriving.

Doom and gloom? Maybe.. but it is time for us to get real and think real. The problems lie all around. None is free of them. All of us have been complicit in watching the changes over the years and doing nothing to stop them.

I watched Indiana Jones in the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" last night. That scene in the beginning when he is running from the big ball.. my thoughts said, "That is what most of us in the US are doing today. Running before we are crushed. Carrying our gold idol with us trying to keep it all while running for our lives."

Not doom and gloom. It is a happy Monday! The sun is out and the sky is bright blue. I have been given another day. My focus is on the here and now, making today the best I can make it for my family, my friends, my colleagues and of course, me. I cannot stop the ball... I'm comfortable with just trying to stay ahead of it as long as I can.. Maybe I will find a means to turn it, to divert it, to gain more time. But, I won't look beyond today. Tomorrow, I will deal with tomorrow.

In Alcoholics Anonymous a principle of one day at a time is taught. That's where I am. One day at a time.
 
   #305  

Jack@European_Parts

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/\

A sad truth and maybe only a solution from an innovative technology & change in mindset too care for one another which can be shown to fix it all!


LET'S INNOVATE!
 
   #306  

DV52

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It's a term used by Trump supporters to label people who ask them to account for what they've done and what they're planning to do. It's sort of a blended Shaggy/Chewbacca Defense applied to political positions. The underlying sentiment is "I don't need to answer that because the person who's asking is Emmanuel Goldstein."
"blended Shaggy/Chewbacca Defense" -Shirley that's not a thing? I do like your unique turn of phrase - it hides what I suspect is an impressive intellect!!

Isn't the methodology used by Trump supporters to dismiss questions self-defeating? By claiming that only members of "The Brotherhood" ask such questions - aren't Trump supporters acknowledging that Trump's America is a dystopian government?

Don
 
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DV52

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^^^ Bruce: thanks for the candid response - I suspect more than a tad influenced by the dire circumstances in which Americans now find themselves.

I agree that the old model of democracy needs revision - but there ain't nothing special about democracy; like every other man-made or deity-made (if you believe in such beings) thing on this fragile blue planet, why shouldn't democracy have a use-by date?

I've no doubt that you are correct, but my personal opinion is that the single biggest factor that has/will signal the demise of democracy is education!! It's a two-edged sword; yes, it results in informing citizens and in shaping their greater demands of Government - but more importantly it also provides Governments with more effective tools to influence voter behaviour. I don't for one second suggest that the pace of education should be diminished!

I don't share your views of socialism. Neither do I dismiss other systems of government like Communism, Monarchy, Confederacy, or even Anarchy! IMO, they all have their advantages and their foibles. Notwithstanding the tendancy to think about these options as being mutually exclusive, they are not! The trick is to pick-and-choose elements from each that suit the needs of citizens (for the times)!

As for your assertion that America's high penetration of government workers influence election outcomes - what about breaking the nexus between the two? "Separation of powers" works in America (well... to a degree) for the judicial system - why can't it work for the myriad government services that affect ALL citizens' daily lives? It works in other first world countries that claim to practice democracy and it removes the direct influence of the ruling party (albeit Government decisions like reduced budgets do still have an impact)

Don
 
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   #308  

Bruce

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^^^ Bruce: thanks for the candid response - I suspect more than a tad influenced by the dire circumstances in which Americans now find themselves.
I do not find US to be in "dire circumstances" at the current moment. Should the pandemic lock downs remain too long, then we may move into "dire". My comments are based on my life long evaluation of the failure of our form of government. As you rightly point out, no governing method can remain constant. Change is the only constant. However, one may not like the change that comes. I do not like the changes I have observed.

I agree that the old model of democracy needs revision - but there ain't nothing special about democracy; like every other man-made or deity-made (if you believe in such beings) thing on this fragile blue planet, why shouldn't democracy have a use-by date?

I've no doubt that you are correct, but my personal opinion is that the single biggest factor that has/will signal the demise of democracy is education!! It's a two-edged sword; yes, it results in informing citizens and in shaping their greater demands of Government - but more importantly it also provides Governments with more effective tools to influence voter behaviour. I don't for one second suggest that the pace of education should be diminished!
You have no doubt that i am correct? Then my friend forgive me, for if you think I am correct, you may be proved a fool. Certainly many feel my views to be antiquated and foolish.

Your point on education is well taken. The more we learn and understand, it seems the more people wish to have the government solve their problems. Being as bent and screwed up as I am, I contend the education is a brain washing method and I am not alone in this. If pressed I'll be happy to share several examples. That which is taught is highly influenced by the government who supports the education system - well, we the taxpayer do the financial support but we have little say in what goes in the actual books.

Should we dive into a discussion of a point in this matter? Some will accuse me of making statements with no example so let's not have that. Science cannot prove Evolution. Religion cannot prove Creation. Both offer possibilities. Yet, the texts in most public schools only offer the Theory of Evolution as if it is fact - not mentioning the flaws in Miller's experiment - not mentioning the Cambrian Explosion.. creating minds that are fed the public line. Just a small example - Let's not speak about historical distortions.

Here is the question: Are we creating people capable of independent thinking? Or are we educating them to be exactly as we want them to be? Are we creating people who are dependent on government to tell them how to be, how to think, how to act? When crisis comes, what then can they do? Can they think beyond the box? Can they analyze and argue intelligently the points? Or will they dissolve discussion into innuendo and recrimination? You see, while some have labeled the "Trumpers" as uneducated and ignorant, the other side has behaved in much the same way. Have we created a society through education where the difficulties cannot be discussed openly and intelligently in good productive debate? Have we created a society where people see bullying and denigration as a means of making a point? From where did this idea and teaching come? I contend it is from the schools.

Don, you and I do not agree on a myriad of points, yet as old farts, we disagree without the tactics used by others. Why? My bet is you were raised to hold others in high esteem; to accept that others may have opinions that differ from your own and further you were to respect their right to hold those different opinions. And if you did not do so, you likely were clocked upside the head by mom or pop. That my friend may be a difference. Today, we do not teach that respect.

I don't share your views of socialism. Neither do I dismiss other systems of government like Communism, Monarchy, Confederacy, or even Anarchy! IMO, they all have their advantages and their foibles. Notwithstanding the tendancy to think about these options as being mutually exclusive, they are not! The trick is to pick-and-choose elements from each that suit the needs of citizens (for the times)!
I understand. I do not believe that one can form a government that incorporates all those divergent points of view. There are fundamental beliefs incorporated in all of those forms. How does one pick and choose the pieces without loosing the prime idea? Maybe there is a way... I leave that discussion for those far above my intelligence level.

As for your assertion that America's high penetration of government workers influence election outcomes - what about breaking the nexus between the two? "Separation of powers" works in America (well... to a degree) for the judicial system - why can't it work for the myriad government services that affect ALL citizens' daily lives? It works in other first world countries that claim to practice democracy and it removes the direct influence of the ruling party (albeit Government decisions like reduced budgets do still have an impact)
How does one now implement such a change? When such a large block would be directly affected, could one implement such?

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the choice to work in government would take away the right to vote for certain offices - correct? That if one were to serve, they could no longer exercise their constitutional right to vote their mind in all elections? This would be a huge change to the US constitution. Don't you see big problems? In order to get this change, the 50 States representation would have to ratify the change. That means the governments of each of the 50 states comprising hundreds of people in each state would have to affirm such a change. Sorry Don, while I see advantage of the idea, I don't see it having a breath of air owing to the fact that the bureaucrat that we want to limit has to vote to limit themselves!

Thanks again for listening. I appreciate your taking the time to exchange ideas.
 
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DV52

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^^^^ Bruce: As enjoyable as this discourse is -we are straying from the objective of this tread !! But thanks for the intellectual banter.

Perhaps we should start a thread in Uwe's bar about religion? Maybe not - way too controversial (much more contentious than the intended thread topic of Democrats-versus-Republicans)!!

Anyway, unapologetically I'm very much a rationalist on most the stuff in your response. Are you aware of the "categorical imperative"? If not, and if you don't mind reading what some religious folk might view as heresy - I suggest that you read Kant's work on what he says is the universal moral law that ought to ground all free and good action.

Stay well

Don
 
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Bruce

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^^^^ Bruce: As enjoyable as this discourse is -we are straying from the objective of this tread !! But thanks for the intellectual banter.
Right. Yes, have read Kant. Maybe I need to refresh.

Getting back on topic: Your question was who will win: Democrats.
 
   #312  

Mike R

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Right. Yes, have read Kant. Maybe I need to refresh.

Getting back on topic: Your question was who will win: Democrats.
So who are they going to be replacing Biden with in order to get this win?
 
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Bruce

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So who are they going to be replacing Biden with in order to get this win?
If you read what I have written, it does not matter who they put up. The people will vote against the party in power. Time of crisis historical facts...

Understand, I am not saying I support the DEMs.. I do not. But I am resigned to the fact they will win.

Some will say it ain't over until its over... Well, yeah, think back to Bush Jr... think back to Jimmy Carter.... they were voted out - not because they had failed but because the crisis underway leads many to blame the President and choose to remove.

It's history... what would change this election?
 
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If you read what I have written, it does not matter who they put up. The people will vote against the party in power. Time of crisis historical facts...

Understand, I am not saying I support the DEMs.. I do not. But I am resigned to the fact they will win.

Some will say it ain't over until its over... Well, yeah, think back to Bush Jr... think back to Jimmy Carter.... they were voted out - not because they had failed but because the crisis underway leads many to blame the President and choose to remove.

It's history... what would change this election?
Bush Jr. was a two term president. He was term limited, not voted out. Did you mean Bush Sr.?
 
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Bruce

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I has them reversed in my mind.. thought Jr was 1 and pop was 2... my bad.
 
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Uwe

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Bush Senior's failure to win re-election was (IMO) due to two factors:
1) His broken "Read my lips, no new taxes" campaign promise from four years earlier.
2) Ross Perot's strong independent candidacy. Perot got 18.9% of the vote and took far more of them from Bush than Clinton.

-Uwe-
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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He is right, only problem is, it hasn't been done now has it?

Now if an EO was written to bring all industry home and repeal crippling legislation that prevents corporate operation but still making them responsible for safe work conditions in all sectors & he require all companies in next six months come back with a tax break by jobs created or with a penalty for failure or risk denial entry at port for everything & was done in spirit to put US back to work, than you might be able to say that?


https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/05/14/trump-pandemic-coronavirua-257856


‘Trump was right’: President claims pandemic has proved his economic theories
 
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