STOP START PERMANENT DELETE, ANY TIPS?

[IndianaMuscle]

Hmm, based on my understanding of the English language, if it isn't illegal do something, then it's legal to do that thing.

-Uwe-

It’s my law background rearing its ugly head.

Do you know what the definition of is is?

 

[IndianaMuscle]

^^^ hmm......... As a prelude to my confusion, I'll freely admit that I may not be the brightest penny in the purse and I'm particularly obtuse when it comes to understanding America's legal instruments for vehicle compliance (your DoT rules for car lighting is absolutely unfathomable IMHO).

So, in view of the preceeding posts - can someone explain to me how the legal (or for that matter, the ethical) prohibition for disabling Start/stop sits with VAG's inclusion of the little button in their cars that does just that (i.e. disables SS)?

If a driver of a car with SS presses the button every-time that the ignition is cycled -does she commit a misdemeanor in America?

And, if the prohibition is for another definition of "permanent" disablement - are the suite of after-market physical devices (like my design) still legal -because they allow SS to be engaged if the driver is so disposed?

And for those drivers that have an ethical problem with SS disablement and who are flooded with Catholic guilt at the mere thought of a finger approaching the native SS button - why do they buy a car that has such a facility?

Don

Ive always liked you.

 

[IndianaMuscle]

Hmm, based on my understanding of the English language, if it isn't illegal do something, then it's legal to do that thing.

-Uwe-

I’ll also thank you for tacitly defending my mods, as they meet your criteria, Jack and a few others could learn from your superior intellect.

 

[Uwe]

So, in view of the preceeding posts - can someone explain to me how the legal (or for that matter, the ethical) prohibition for disabling Start/stop sits with VAG's inclusion of the little button in their cars that does just that (i.e. disables SS)?

I think the idea is that there may be acceptable reasons to turn off s/s temporarily.

If a driver of a car with SS presses the button every-time that the ignition is cycled -does she commit a misdemeanor in America?

I seriously doubt it.

And, if the prohibition is for another definition of "permanent" disablement - are the suite of after-market physical devices (like my design) still legal -because they allow SS to be engaged if the driver is so disposed?

Unclear. The EPA may take a different view of something that has it off by default rather than the factory's on by default. But the bureaucratic hive-mind is beyond my comprehension, so I'm only guessing.

And for those drivers that have an ethical problem with SS disablement and who are flooded with Catholic guilt at the mere thought of a finger approaching the native SS button - why do they buy a car that has such a facility (i.e. they thereby support a manufacturer that dabbles in heinous practices)?

I have yet to encounter a person that has ethical problem with temporary disablement via the button.

-Uwe-

 

[IndianaMuscle]

I think the idea is that there may be acceptable reasons to turn off s/s temporarily.


I seriously doubt it.


Unclear. The EPA may take a different view of something that has it off by default rather than the factory's on by default. But the bureaucratic hive-mind is beyond my comprehension, so I'm only guessing.


I have yet to encounter a person that has ethical problem with temporary disablement via the button.

-Uwe-

All good points, but none of them are codified in law. The sticking point among the group is the “permanaent” disablement via coding and the horrors created by such. It’s like these folks think the EPA is lurking behind every tree.

 

[Jack@European_Parts]

except for perhaps jack

I really don't care what someone does to their own property or on their own property & their privacy is to be respected, with inverse expectation & as long as it doesn't encroach on me or cause possible liability for me or someone I care for or the helpless & including my safe reasonably expected clean environment.

It's when that boundary is breached, pretty much for everything & as a rule for me, countermeasures or possible defense is to be taken with consideration of repercussions

 

[IndianaMuscle]

I really don't care what someone does to their own property or on their own property & their privacy is to be respected, with inverse expectation & as long as it doesn't encroach on me or cause possible liability for me or someone I care for or the helpless & including my safe reasonably expected clean environment.

It's when that boundary is breached, pretty much for everything & as a rule for me, countermeasures or possible defense is to be taken.

Happens to me on the road all the time. It’s like Mad Max out there. We all know the gun grabbing state of New York cuts your balls off, so have that phone ready to call the police for defense!

 

[Jack@European_Parts]

I'd be quite surprised if there's a specific start/stop law.

However, if the manufacturer (VW) used the fact that it has a start/stop system as part of the emissions certification process, then permanently disabling that system would make the car non-compliant with its emissions certification, and doing so would indeed be illegal according to the EPA's statement in the article you previously linked to. I mean an engine that isn't running inherently produces fewer emissions than one that is, right? And the emissions test cycle surely includes some simulated stopped-at-a-red-light time....

-Uwe-

Vehicle Identification No.	3VW6T7BU9KM153XXX
Model	Jetta 2,0 JEM
Date of production	29.01.2019
Model year	2019
Sales type	BU39VZ
Engine Code	DKFA
Transmission Code	TSX

Emission standard	7CB	Emission standard LEV 3/Tier 3 30

Durability Group: KVGAGPGNNA3AEvap.

Family: KVGAR0110ABBKVGAR0135ACT

Test Group: KVGAJ02.0A3A

Certificate Number: KVGAJ02.0A3A – 010, 018
Durability Group Description:Four Stroke, Otto Cycle, Gasoline Fueled, Direct Fuel Injection,Catalyst Code: UTC1007, UTC1005
Test group Description: 2.0 Liter Turbocharged I4 – LDV / LDT2 (Tiguan)
Applicable Standards: 50-State: Federal:CA:Tier 3 BIN 30 LEVIII SULEV30
Car lines Covered: Tiguan, Tiguan 4Motion, A3, A3 Cabriolet, A3 Cabriolet quattro,A3 quattro, TT Coupe quattro, TT Roadster quattro, Golf GTI,Jetta GLI


KVGAJ02.0A3A

Jetta GLI (DQ-F)DKFA

5G0.906.259.Q 0003 C75A4149
5G0259Q 0003 DXAJ80AD8F88 5G0259Q 0003 BXAJJetta GLI (MQ-F) B078ADC5
5G0259Q 0003 AXADF78F6304 5G0259Q 0003 CXAD



Engine Starting procedure:Press the brake pedal and move the selector lever into the P or N position.Press the “START ENGINE STOP” button or Start engine by turning key to “Start” positionESP/ABS Deactivation procedureDyno test mode must be activated!Fan Position during dyno testing:FTP / HWY = Small fan in front down position.US06 = Large fan in front down position.

Address 01: Engine (J623-DKFA) Labels: None
Part No SW: 5G0 906 259 Q HW: 06K 907 425 J
Component: 2.0l R4 TFSI H13 0003
Revision: --H13---
Coding: 092500124424012F3000


Address 02: Auto Trans (J743) Labels:. 0BH-927-711.clb
Part No SW: 0GC 300 020 G HW: 0GC 927 711 H
Component: GSG DQ381 H06 2403
Revision: 00H06V08
Coding: 0014

Special editions
E35
35 years GLI
Lockable wheel bolts
1PF
Standard wheel bolts
Vehicle class differentiation
units/platform components
1TJ
Vehicle class differentiation -17A-
tail pipe
0P4
Exhaust tailpipe, double-flow
drive-off assistance
UG1
Hill hold control
Emission standard
7CB
Emission standard LEV 3/Tier 3 30
Trailer hitch
1D0
without trailer towing
airbag
4UM
Airbag for driver and front passenger
(NAR) with front passenger airbag
deactivation (2-stage)
Aktivkohlebehälter / Ottopartikelfilter
1E7
Activated carbon canister (ORVR), for
intensified evaporation system,
siphoning device for fueling
Storage compartment
7N0
Without overhead storage compartment
Aerials
8L6
"diversity" window antenna
Exterior mirror setting
6XN
Exterior mirrors, power-adjustable/
separately heated
Follow-on warranty
EA0
Without subsequent warranty
Left exterior mirror
5SH
Left exterior mirror, flat (US)
Electronic engine sound measures
GM1
Standard electronic engine sound
Right exterior mirror
5RR
Right exterior mirror, convex (US)
Alternative drive system
0K0
Without alternative drive system
Drive type
1X0
Front-wheel drive
"Multimedia"video/DVD/notebook connection
9WT
Mirror Link
Equipment levels
A8H
Top sports equipment
Area monitoring systems
6K2
Front Assist incl. city emergency brake, without ACC
Brake type in rear
1KV
Disc brakes in rear (Geomet D)
batteries
J0T
Battery 360 A (69 Ah)
Brake type, front
1LG
Silver caliper
Components with special surface
6FJ
Black exterior mirror housings
Battery/alternator capacity
NY0
Standard battery/alternator capacity
Component part sets with
country-specific design requirements
B0D
Assembly kit, USA corresponding vehicle
version (not California), various parts
vehicle tools and jack
1S1
vehicle tools and jack
Brake systems
1AS
Electronic stability control (ESC)
Owner's manuals
0VM
Information kit in American English
Operating voltage
9Z0
Operating voltage 12 V
brake wear indicator
9U0
Without brake pad wear indicator
Heated washer nozzles
9T0
Without heated washer nozzles
CD ROM/DVD/SD card
7QA
Without CD/DVD for navigation
"Charism"
2H4
Driving profile selection and hydraulic
damper control
Chrome package
QJ0
Without aluminum/chrome package
General operating permit, alterations
C00
Operating permit, initial registration
Roof insert/convertible top
3FA
roof without cut out
Suspension system in rear
UB1
Rear shock absorption for sports version
Suspension system in front
G26
Shock absorption in front
Differential lock
1Y2
Front differential lock
ECO function for driving profiles and
Drive select
EF1
ECO function
Installation differentiation for components
0IJ
Installation differentiation for
transmission DQ381
-- vehicle components --
Theft protection system
7AI
Electronic immobilizer, with panic
alarm
Inserts
5MT
Decorative inserts
Scuff plates
VT9
Sill trim strips
campaign versions
Park distance control
7X0
Without park distance control
Extended safety system
7W0
Without extended safety system
Electric interface for external use
UI5
External, USB type A, 1x USB socket
Manufacturing sequence differentiation
0FL
Mexico manufacturing sequence
window regulator
4R4
Power windows with comfort operation and
circuit breaker
fire extinguisher
6A0
without fire extinguisher
Pedestrian protection
VL1
Extended pedestrian protection measures
Pedal cluster
VF1
pedal cluster
Headlight activation
9C9
Separate daytime running light and
automatic headlight control -NAR- with
Coming Home and Leaving Home feature
Fresh air intake for passenger
compartment (with particulate filter)
2V1
dust-pollen filter
Parking brake
UH1
Parking brake
Vehicle tracing system
7G0
Without preparation for VTS
(vehicle tracking system)
Vehicle specifications
F0A
No special purpose vehicle, standard
equipment
Alternators
9G2
Alternator 100-150 A
Weight category rear axle
0YF
Weight range 6
installation control only, no
requirement forecast
Weight category front axle
L39
Suspension range 39
installation control only, no
requirement forecast
Base engine
TX8
4-cylinder SI engine 2.0 l
unit 06K.3
cruise control system
8T2
Electronic cruise control system (CCS)
Transmission specifications
G1C
7-speed automatic transmission
handle for hand brake lever
6PB
Without hand brake lever handle
Rear spoiler
5J4
Body-colored rear spoiler
Rear window wiper and washer system
8M0
Without rear window wiper and washer
system
Rear axle
0N4
4-link rear suspension
Molded headliner
6NW
Unsplit molding roof liner
Rear seats
3KF
Rücksitzbank ungeteilt, Lehne geteilt
umlegbar mit Mittelarmlehne
Heating and air-conditioning system
9AK
Climatronic with impact pressure
control, CFC-free
Headlamps
8IY
LED headlamps with lens
Customized installation
FC1
Customized installation
Interior light in footwell
6T1
Interior light in footwell
Instrument clusters
U5C
Instrument cluster, mph speedometer
- USA -
Breakaway interior rearview mirror
4L6
Breakaway interior rearview mirror,
auto-dimming
Sticker (customized or special edition)
0KZ
Decals for special editions
Body style
K8B
Notchback
Camera/distance sensor
QK0
Without multifunction camera
coolbox
1W0
Without refrigerator/glove compartment
cooling system
Folding table
1U8
W/o folding table on front seat backrest
Climatic zones
0Y4
Cold and tropical climatic zones (US)
Seat ventilation/massage seat
4D0
Without seat ventilation/massage seat
Head restraints
5ZF
Front head restraints
Fuel quantity for initial filling
1Z0
Initial standard fuel filling
Fuel systems
1A5
Fuel system for SI engine
Body measures
5C1
Body measures for increased safety
requirements
Camera systems/accident sensors
KA1
With rear view camera system (type 1)
Radiator grille
6KD
Radiator grille
refrigerant
KK3
Refrigerant R1234yf
License plate lighting
KL1
LED license plate lighting
License plate carrier
31G
Front license plate carrier (small)
Paint preservative/transit coating
5K7
Transport protection film (minimum
protection) with additional transport
protection measures
Paint coating
FB0
standard paint coating
Light package (lighting)
QQ7
puddle lighting
Vehicle inlet
ES0
Without vehicle inlet
Steering system arrangement
L0L
Left-hand drive
Reading lamp
8S1
Reading light in front
steering
1N7
Dynamic steering
Backrest release
3H0
Without backrest release for front seats
Curb weight range
IG0
Standard curb weight range
Light control systems
8G0
Without Light Assist
Lumbar support
7P0
Without lumbar support
in seat backrests
steering wheels
2FW
Leather-wrapped multi-function sports
steering wheel with tiptronic
Driving on the left/on the right
AV2
Driving on the right (NAR)
Speaker installation
8RL
6 speakers (passive)
Headlight range control
8Q0
Without headlight range control
Center armrest
6E4
Center armrest in front
Versions
FM9
CO2 variant
Multi-function display/trip computer
9S5
Multi-function display/trip computer
"Medium"
Driver alert system
EM0
Without driver alert system
Engine cooling
8Z6
Hot country
Engine specifications
DM9
4-cylinder SI engine 2.0 l/170 kW (16V)
turbo FSI, homogeneous
base engine is TP6/TN9/TX8
Navigation device
7Q0
without navigation system
rear fog lamp
8TA
witout rear fog lamp
Front fog lamp/additional headlamp
8WA
Without fog lights
Online services
EL0
Without online service
Rear of platform module base
4P1
Rear floor panel module, type 2
Hubcaps
1NL
Trims for alloy wheels
Wheels
48J
Alloy wheels 7.5J x 18
Radios
I8C
.
Smoker's/non-smoker's package
9JF
Non-smoking package (NAR)
Regional code for radio
ER3
Regional code " NAR " for radio
Tire pressure monitoring system
7K6
Tire pressure monitoring system
tire
HD9
All-season tires 225/45 R18 91H (NAR)
Tire suppliers
V0A
Tires without specification of tire
brand
Spare wheel/breakdown kit
1G9
Space-saving spare wheel for temporary
use, radial tire
(5-hole)
Wheelbases
0B3
Wheelbase
Restraint systems, front
4QQ
3-point seat belts in front with
pretensioner and height adjustment,
US label
Call feature
NZ0
Ohne Ruffunktion
W35
"Edition 35"
Side airbag
4X3
Side airbag in front, with curtain
airbag
Gearshift knob/handle
6Q6
Gearshift knob/handle in aluminum
Special labels/plates
0SC
Labels in English
Tail lamp assemblies
8SQ
LED rear combination lamp
Service indicator
QI7
Service indicator 10 000 miles or
1 year (fix)
Nameplates for sales name
QD0
Without lettering for sales name
Seat belt check
9P7
Visual and acoustic seat belt reminder,
electric contact in buckle
Outer rear seat belts
3ZD
3-point seat belts, outer rear with US
label
Center rear seat belts
3C8
3-point seat belt, center rear with US
label
seat covers
N2M
Seat trim covers in fabric
Seat adjustment
3L1
Manual height adjustment for left front
seat
seat heater
4A3
Seat heater for front seats
separately controlled
Side lights
7R7
Side marker lights plus exterior mirror
turn signals
Start-stop system/regenerative braking
7L6
Start/stop system with brake energy recovery
Horns
8Y1
Two-tone horn
Control number (no PR family)
S0C
Introductory volume
sun visors
5XZ
Sun visors with mirror ( NAR )
Audio-response system/voice control
QH0
without voice control
Lane change assist/lane keeping system
7Y8
Blind spot monitor
Side and rear windows
4KC
Side and rear windows in heat-insulating
glass
power outlet
7B0
Without socket
Bumper
2JG
Body-colored bumpers
Rear stabilizer
0BF
Rear stabilizer
starter
7U2
Preparation for retrofitting, engine
starter plus remote start feature
Front stabilizer bar
0AE
Front stabilizer bar
Drawers under front seats
QN0
Without drawers under front seats
Headlamp washer system
8X0
Without headlamp washer system
Windshield wiper intermittent control/
light/rain sensor
8N6
Windshield wiper intermittent control
with light/rain sensor
Nameplate set
0NQ
Nameplate set "GLI"
Mass damper for steering wheels
1Q0
steering wheel without balance weight
Door and lid locking system
4F6
Central locking system "Keyless Entry"
without SAFELOCK (NAR)
Type approval countries/countries with
special requirements
BU2
Legal requirements for USA 2
States with CARB requirement
Carrier frequency for remote control
5D2
Carrier frequency 315 MHz
Partition
3CA
Without partition
Door and side trim panels
3LJ
Door and side trim panel in foam film,
insert in leatherette
doors
0A2
4 doors
TV reception/digital radio reception
QV0
without TV/digital radio reception
Front underbody guard
1SA
Without additional front underbody guard
Identification plates
1EB
Ohne Typschild
Delivery equipment
2A0
Without delivery equipment
First aid kit / warning triangle
1T0
Without first-aid material, without warning triangle
Two-way radio installation preparation
9D0
without prepared for two way radio system
Front seats
Q4H
Sports comfort seats in front
Rear seat catch
UK1
Standard rear seat release
Telephone / telematics
9ZX
Telephone preparation for cellphone
LongLife Service Regime
QG1
LongLife Service Regime
Heat accumulator system/auxiliary heater
7E0
W/o heat accumulator/auxiliary heating
Windshield Glass
4GF
Windshield in heat-insulating glass
Washer fluid level indicator
8W1
Washer fluid level indicator
Additional tires (snow tires)
2WA
without spare tyre
floor mats
0TD
Floor mats in front and rear
Decorative trims
4ZQ
Without additional decorative trims
Additional child seat anchors
3B7
Child seat anchors as per Canadian
requirements a. ISOFIX child seat system
Auxiliary heating system
9M0
Without auxiliary heater/parking heater

 

[Jack@European_Parts]

https://www.epa.gov/sites/productio...ad-acid-battery-for-stop-start-technology.pdf

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/02/f8/idle-stop_light_duty_passenger_vehicles.pdf

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-05/documents/_epaoig_20180515-18-p-0181.pdf

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/86.1803-01

 

[IndianaMuscle]

Great info. But still no mention of ASS(auto start stop, my new acronym).

No ASS no cert no worries.

 

[IndianaMuscle]

heh, their conclusion seems to just about sum up this thread.



Aside from the annoyances and legal minutia of start/stop behavior modification, I personally think you are acting selfishly and foolishly for disabling your vehicle(s) third brake light, despite any excuses or exclamations of your driving safety.

Third brake lights are not for YOU, they are for everyone behind you.

If I had a junker behind you, I'd be happy to test out your insurance company policies in that regards.

By the way this test you talk about is akin to me wanting you to be rear-ended by somebody in your new car and I do not find it in very good taste. Maybe you could test the theory of running into somebody or having someone run into you how’s that?

I could analogize the SH!!T out of this one but I’ll get banned in one post.

 

[jyoung8607]

I don’t know if I ever used the words “legal to do so” or the like, but I did say it wasn’t illegal. Call it what you will.

Not only did you, on page one:

I cannot say for UK, but in US it’s perfectly legal.

The forum response to your statement is literally the core topic of the next eight pages of the thread: what's legal vs what's likely to get you in trouble in the real world. At least for regular people who don't go tugging on Superman's cape by incriminating themselves in a letter to the EPA.

Do you have the integrity to acknowledge that much at least?

 

[Uwe]

We all know the gun grabbing state of New York cuts your balls off, so have that phone ready to call the police for defense!

You don't know Jack.

-Uwe-

 

[IndianaMuscle]

I won’t even go there. He’s armed with type, I’m armed.

 

[IndianaMuscle]

Not only did you, on page one:



The forum response to your statement is literally the core topic of the next eight pages of the thread: what's legal vs what's likely to get you in trouble in the real world. At least for regular people who don't go tugging on Superman's cape by incriminating themselves in a letter to the EPA.

Do you have the integrity to acknowledge that much at least?

Until you prove otherwise, it’s legal. I won’t discuss that point any further. So I wrote to the EPA, the SS OFF button in each car already makes my point. Big deal.

 

[Uwe]

I’m armed.

Cool. Referring to the people of this country, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "It is their right and duty to be at all times armed". Many of us at Ross-Tech take that duty very seriously.

But I digress. Please refrain from veiled threats of violence. The only morally acceptable use of violence is in the defense people and property, and none of us here, not even Jack, is going to harm you or steal your stuff.

-Uwe-

 

[Uwe]

I won’t discuss that point any further.

You promise?

-Uwe-

 

[IndianaMuscle]

Cool. Referring to the people of this country, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "It is their right and duty to be at all times armed". Many of us at Ross-Tech take that duty very seriously.

But I digress. Please refrain from veiled threats of violence. The only morally acceptable use of violence is in the defense people and property, and none of us here, not even Jack, is going to harm you or steal your stuff.

-Uwe-

I don’t recall making even one threat of violence. Smart guys don’t threaten anyway. You’re talking to a former bar fighter here. You don’t discuss or threaten, you act.

You have nothing to fear from me unless threatened.

 

[IndianaMuscle]

You promise?

-Uwe-

He’s the one who brought it back up again. I’ll keep the rest of my correspondence with the EPA personal if you wish. It’s nothing but a two legged barstool at this point anyway.

 

[Jack@European_Parts]

Originally Posted by kawzx7
We all know the gun grabbing state of New York cuts your balls off, so have that phone ready to call the police for defense!



You don't know Jack.

-Uwe-

Have I attempted to refrain from arguing or answering idiots, Uwe?

Indeed I reside in the anti gun state, you & apparently the reckless poster has as you informed me & which still failed to capitulate, is that right?

Is this the part of the reg of the attached FTP to the aforementioned conformity certificate application & that would make a car as certified, illegal to disable or tamper it and yes making it a defeat device?

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2012-title40-vol34/pdf/CFR-2012-title40-vol34-part1066.pdf
40 CFR Subpart G - Special Compliance Provisions

40 CFR § 1037.660 - Idle-reduction technologies.

GHG morning coffee helper, Pardon me..........

(b)Override conditions. The system may limit activation of the idle-reduction technology while any of the conditions of this paragraph (b) apply. These conditions allow the system to delay engine shutdown, adjust engine restarting, or delay disengaging transmissions, 'but do not allow for resetting timers'. Engines may restart and transmissions may re-engage during override conditions if the vehicle is set up to do this automatically. We may approve additional override criteria as needed to protect the engine and vehicle from damage and to ensure safe vehicleoperation.

Yeah that's the stop/start switch!

PHASE II <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ?

Yes indeed, he doesn't know Jack or the FFL, FTP, or CFR?