STOP START PERMANENT DELETE, ANY TIPS?

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Jack@European_Parts

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FMVSS absolutely requires it, at least at time of manufacture. As for operation in any given state once you've purchased it, you may be technically correct.

You may wish to consult this document about the real world benefits: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...l_complete.pdf I suspect the benefit may be even greater, if my guess is correct and you have tinted or smoked your primary brake lights, hard to tell.

You may also wish to consult your insurance carrier. If someone rear-ends you, they would ordinarily be at clear fault. Right up until they, or someone nearby, has a dashcam rolling. At which point there will be a very interesting discussionbetween their insurance carrier, which can now assign partial blame to you, and your insurance carrier, which may have some coverage exceptions for gross or willful negligence.
Jason is hitting +5 stars on his papers tonight!

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2009-title49/html/USCODE-2009-title49-subtitleVI.htm
§32507. Penalties and enforcement & Criminal
 
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DV52

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Hmm....... my fellow forum colleague's views about each-other's intellectual prowess notwithstanding ;) - if I may be allowed to hijack the preceding erudite discourse on the legality, or otherwise of disabling SS facility - I couldn't help myself (it's my inveterate curiosity), I had to buy the SS device that PetrolDave suggested on another thread

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Start...53.m1438.l2649

My first response to Dave's suggestion was:
^^^ To add to Dave's suggestion - just a guess at what's on the Arduino shield for the eBay unit. If you buy one, please confirm.

Don

Well - to say that there was an economy of information that accompanied the delivery of the device would be a supreme understatement: absolutely no paperwork at all (no installation instructions and no user manual) -only the device which had a URL printed on the PCB.

I dutifully visited the site -only to be told that it was under construction. Contacted the seller - but after a couple of attempts - still nothing!!

So-I heated-up my soldering iron, grabbed my trusty variable DC power-supply and fished-out a couple of switches from the junk box. Assembled the lot on my workshop bench, made a few simple connections and hooked-up my multi-meter to the SSA+ and SSA- wires.

First and reassuringly, I was correct (it doesn't happen often - so I relish each instance when it does!:D) - the device does indeed use a stripped-down Arduino chip (Atmel's 8 x bit AT-Tiny)

It appears that SSA+ and SSA- operate by switching the respective wire to +12V and earth respectively (albeit SSA- seems to "float" when not switched).

It appears that the device has 3 x operating modes:
  1. Service Mode: This is invoked by a long press (>5 seconds - I think) of the native SS switch with Terminal 15 active. I suspect that this state is intended to mimic the default SS status on the car: it appears to be a "cloaking mode" to negate any confusion when the car is serviced by the dealer/independent-workshop. The device does nothing in this state -so SS is completely controlled by the native SS switch. Repeat of the process for enabling Service Mode will disable the function.
  2. Always-OFF Mode: This is invoked by holding down the native SS switch @ Terminal 15 switch-on. After each T15 cycle, about 4 seconds later, a 2 x second pulse is sent from SSA+/SSA-. Because the default SS status is ON - this means that with ignition switch-ON, SS will be automatically switched-OFF (after about 5 x seconds) every time that the ignition key is turned-on.
  3. Memory Mode: This is the "toggle-state" if ALWAYS OFF mode is not selected. In this state, the device remembers the SS status at the previous ignition cycle. If SS was enabled in the previous ignition cycle, the device does nothing in the subsequent ignition cycle. If SS was disabled previously, the device sends a pulse in the subsequent ignition switch-ON (4 x second wait - followed by a 2 x second pulse)

So- an interesting device - I just wish that the manufacturer/seller would use Ross-Tech's sales support philosophy in their business model!!

Don
PS: as for the question about legality of suppressing/deleting SS - perspective is everything IMO!! And, to the question of our individual intelligence - it's worth remembering that by definition about 50% of this forum community will have an IQ less than 100. So - ain't nothing wrong with having lots of colleagues with me on the "left-side" of the bell curve - IMO:thumbs:
 
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   #43  

jyoung8607

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I’ll have that info for you tomorrow. Feel free to call tha numbers, speak to the agents, and give us your admission you’re wrong or dance around like a Democratic politician and act like you’re right. I’ve broken no laws and I know it, kinda reminds me of that song “I’m Sexy and I know it”.
When you call, the thing you want to ask the agent about is whether you're allowed to "defeat" the "engine idle start-stop" AECD for which Volkswagen received "off-cycle emissions credit" per 40 CFR 86.1869-12.

The ECU collects detailed statistics for this, which are accessible in a couple ways. One way is using VCDS in VW proprietary CAN/UDS diagnostics mode through address 01 or 19. Another is via Generic OBD2 Mode 9 PID $22 as Jack mentioned, which most OBD2 tools will see along with CARB and other state emissions test stations.

VCDS actually doesn't see Mode 9 PID $22 at this time (among others) which is an observation I shared with with Ross-Tech a while back, but I don't think many other people have asked, and I don't think Eric will consider xkcd.com/386 as a further business justification on my part. :D
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Awesome post Jason....& Don

I'm not against knowing how stuff works or what's out there in order to be aware of what some putz might put hidden in the car.

I take issue with people looking to disable shit that makes the cars unsafe or shout out stuff is perfectly legal to mislead some dumb bastard into hurting themselves or someone else unwittingly.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Yeah, well it isn't often I post in the Galaxy of the "Tweaks or Retrofits" and I have my reasons because often it violates my own convictions & in many cases I believe opens my friends up to serious liabilities, what you think?

If any post violates or assists in the circumventing of a comporting qualified repair, emission's or safety system & that could unwittingly hurt the public, it shouldn't be permitted, right?

Isn't that why each TPMS delete request in this section or forum in general has been locked?

I mean seriously deleting the rear third brake light or requests to turn his bright lights on with lows & at same time are not in the spirit of a retrofit or even a comporting tweak, isn't it reckless?
 
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When you call, the thing you want to ask the agent about is whether you're allowed to "defeat" the "engine idle start-stop" AECD for which Volkswagen received "off-cycle emissions credit" per 40 CFR 86.1869-12.

The ECU collects detailed statistics for this, which are accessible in a couple ways. One way is using VCDS in VW proprietary CAN/UDS diagnostics mode through address 01 or 19. Another is via Generic OBD2 Mode 9 PID $22 as Jack mentioned, which most OBD2 tools will see along with CARB and other state emissions test stations.

VCDS actually doesn't see Mode 9 PID $22 at this time (among others) which is an observation I shared with with Ross-Tech a while back, but I don't think many other people have asked, and I don't think Eric will consider xkcd.com/386 as a further business justification on my part. :D
I agree it can be seen, but am I a scofflaw? Hardly. As soon as I have the email from EPA, I’ll gladly inform you you’re wrong. ;-) about the emissions control device, I mean.
 
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IndianaMuscle

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Yes, it's an emissions control device.


FMVSS absolutely requires it, at least at time of manufacture. As for operation in any given state once you've purchased it, you may be technically correct.

You may wish to consult this document about the real world benefits: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/documents/chmsl_complete.pdf I suspect the benefit may be even greater, if my guess is correct and you have tinted or smoked your primary brake lights, hard to tell.

You may also wish to consult your insurance carrier. If someone rear-ends you, they would ordinarily be at clear fault. Right up until they, or someone nearby, has a dashcam rolling. At which point there will be a very interesting discussion between their insurance carrier, which can now assign partial blame to you, and your insurance carrier, which may have some coverage exceptions for gross or willful negligence.
And about the rear brake light, I refer you to Indiana code, which specifies, one, minimum.
 
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jyoung8607

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And about the rear brake light, I refer you to Indiana code, which specifies, one, minimum.
That seemed strange, so I took you up on your referral: nope.

Indiana Code 9-19-6-6 said:
IC 9-19-6-6 Selling or operating vehicles without turn signals or stoplights
Sec. 6. (a) This subsection does not apply to a motorcycle, motor vehicle manufactured before January 1, 1956, or motor driven cycle. A person may not:

(1) sell; or

(2) drive on the highways;

in Indiana a motor vehicle unless the vehicle is equipped with at least two (2) stoplights meeting the requirements of section 17 of this chapter.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...es-rules-headlights-and-taillights/698409002/
 
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jyoung8607

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I agree it can be seen, but am I a scofflaw? Hardly. As soon as I have the email from EPA, I’ll gladly inform you you’re wrong. ;-) about the emissions control device, I mean.
I've literally linked you to the legal definitions of AECD, defeat device, off-cycle emissions credit, and engine idle start-stop. I don't know what else to do for you.

Again: I am not the police and I don't really give a damn, but I don't understand why you're going around shouting it's legal when it's clearly not.

Here's another link you can ignore: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/clean-air-act-vehicle-and-engine-enforcement-case-resolutions

Note the relatively small scale of some of the violations and settlements, signifying if you really really throw yourself out there, even YOU can get yourself noticed. But maybe you could make some money by offering your services to one of the dozens of companies listed on just the 2019 and 2018 settlement pages. I don't think they tried your "la la la la I can't hear you" legal strategy and perhaps you could get their cases reopened.
 
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Gentlemen: I just spent the last 20 minutes cleaning up this thread.

I'm only going to ask once: Stop it with the personal attacks, name calling, and thinly veiled threats. I won't have that stuff here!

-Uwe-
 
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IndianaMuscle

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I've literally linked you to the legal definitions of AECD, defeat device, off-cycle emissions credit, and engine idle start-stop. I don't know what else to do for you.

Again: I am not the police and I don't really give a damn, but I don't understand why you're going around shouting it's legal when it's clearly not.

Here's another link you can ignore: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/clean-air-act-vehicle-and-engine-enforcement-case-resolutions

Note the relatively small scale of some of the violations and settlements, signifying if you really really throw yourself out there, even YOU can get yourself noticed. But maybe you could make some money by offering your services to one of the dozens of companies listed on just the 2019 and 2018 settlement pages. I don't think they tried your "la la la la I can't hear you" legal strategy and perhaps you could get their cases reopened.
Silence gives consent. Exactly how I feel. If you’re a lawyer, you’re confusing inadvisable with illegal.

Like I said, I used the written part of the EPA QA and asked, did I break the law? In a day or two, one of us will be correct.
 
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IndianaMuscle

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Heh, they changed it 2018. I stand corrected. I’m still legal. Don’t know about southern Ohio, but in the shitty state of southern Indiana, (yes it’s two states and I live in the north), at least one out of 5 vehicles should have been ticketed for this offense. But the police don’t care. Speeding is easier and more lucrative.
 
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If you’re a lawyer, you’re confusing inadvisable with illegal.


Like I said, I used the written part of the EPA QA and asked, did I break the law? In a day or two, one of us will be correct.
Out of morbid curiosity, I'd love to see a paste or screenshot of the exact question you asked.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Mr. Patrick in the spirit of not arguing further and after PM I'm going to refrain from all your threads going forward and just agree to disagree.

Officially set to ignore!

Good luck with your life choices........
 
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IndianaMuscle

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Out of morbid curiosity, I'd love to see a paste or screenshot of the exact question you asked.
Simple question prefaced by the statement “I permanently disabled the stop start system on my car. Have I broken the law, or not?”

Funny we’re talking about this, https://www.torquenews.com/1083/dis...p-start-system-legal-or-illegal#comment-79684

I told the author his opinion is based on a non answer to his direct question, and is therefore nothing but. Just got an email on the EPA. 10 business days or less.
 
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