Changed Transmission Input Speed Sensor, still get same error.

   #1  

JohnInSeattle

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On a 2005 Beetle. Bought it for $400 with a transmission error.
17100 - Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182)
P0716 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Took out the transmission, it was white glove clean and perfect inside, changed the sensor.
While I was in there also changed the DMF, pilot, CVs and most of the front suspension.
Rear main looked perfectly clean and dry so I left it.
Put the thing back together and the transmission error is unchanged, transmission still randomly downshifts and misses upshifts.
I assume at this point I need to change the mechatronic unit?
Is there anything else that could cause this?
Code:
Sunday,14,April,2019,18:34:00:10819
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
VCDS Version: 18.9.1.0 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4437.4
Data version: 20190114 DS296.0
[url]www.Ross-Tech.com[/url]


VIN: 3VWCR31C55M403812   License Plate: BEEBEE
Mileage: 275950km-171467mi   Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 1C (1C - VW New Beetle (1998 > 2010))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 17 19 25 29 35 37 39 46 54 56 65 75
 
VIN: 3VWCR31C55M403812   Mileage: 275950km-171467miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 038-906-016-BEW.lbl
   Part No SW: 038 906 016 P    HW: 028 101 181 3
   Component: R4 1,9L EDC G000DG  7000  
   Revision: 12345678    Serial number: VWZ5Z0D6261194
   Coding: 0150038
   Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
   VCID: 211F18FF5DDB4E3FB13-5160

3 Faults Found:
17056 - Cylinder 2 Glow Plug Circuit (Q11) 
            P0672 - 000 - Electrical Fault
             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 1197 /min
                    Torque: 62.0 Nm
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Load: 0.0 %
                    Voltage: 11.25 V
                    Bin. Bits: 00101100
                    Temperature: 5.4°C
                    Bin. Bits: 10110000

16512 - Coolant Thermostat Valve (N214) 
            P0128 - 000 - Temperature below Control Range
             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 1764 /min
                    Torque: 164.0 Nm
                    Speed: 49.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 57.6°C
                    Fuel Consump.: 6.80 l/h
                    Temperature: 32.4°C
                    Temperature: 32.4°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1560.6 mbar

16486 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) 
            P0102 - 000 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 1134 /min
                    Torque: 60.0 Nm
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Load: 0.0 %
                    Duty Cycle: 100.6 %
                    Bin. Bits: 00101100
                    Mass Air / Rev.: 660.0 mg/str
                    Mass Air / Rev.: 0.0 mg/str

Readiness: 0 1 0 0 0 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 02E-927-770.clb
   Part No SW: 02E 300 041 S    HW: 02E 927 770 AD
   Component: GSG DSG         041 0806  
   Revision: 00004010    Serial number: 00000405270014
   Coding: 0000020
   Shop #: WSC 44551 111 44551
   VCID: 221D17F358DD5527A89-5160

1 Fault Found:
17100 - Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182) 
            P0716 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ESP-F.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 907 379 M
   Component: ESP FRONT MK60      0102  
   Coding: 0019458
   Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
   VCID: 3431E1ABF229CB974A5-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: None
   VCID: 55F77C2F5D13F29F9DB-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 1C0-920-x4x.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 920 951 M
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. M73 V02  
   Coding: 11232
   Shop #: WSC 23069  
   VCID: 2B03FAD72A17946F1BF-4B1E
   3VWCR31C55M403812     VWZ5Z0D6261194

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
   Part No: 6N0 909 901 
   Component: Gateway K<->CAN    V022  
   Coding: 00006
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 70B92DBBC3B1B7B76ED-4B1E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 959 799 G
   Component: 2K Komfortgerát HLO 0004  
   Coding: 00016
   Shop #: WSC 23072  
   VCID: 3B23CA97DA7704EF8BF-4B1E

1 Fault Found:
01044 - Control Module Incorrectly Coded 
            35-00 -  - 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio        Labels: 1J0-035-18x-56.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 035 196 M
   Component:  RADIO DE2         0003  
   Coding: 06031
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 290F00DF20EB867FE93-51CE

No fault code found.

End----------(Elapsed Time: 03:49, VBatt start/end: 13.7V/13.7V)-----------
 
   #2  

Bruce

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On a 2005 Beetle. Bought it for $400 with a transmission error.
17100 - Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182)
P0716 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent

Is there anything else that could cause this?
Broken wire? Skinned/Chafed wire shorting to case? Loose pin in a connector? I doubt it is the mechatronic unit given it is an intermittent condition.
 
   #3  

JohnInSeattle

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Broken wire? Skinned/Chafed wire shorting to case? Loose pin in a connector? I doubt it is the mechatronic unit given it is an intermittent condition.
The sensor, wire and it's connector to the Mechatronic are entirely inside the transmission.
The new sensor came with the wire and connector as part of it.

The wiring to the TCM is in visually perfect condition, all the factory clips and holders were, and are back, in place.
How would I start tracking down a broken connection?

 
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   #4  

MartinsX

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Implausible signal is the worst DTC description to diagnose. It could be not only electrical but mechanical fault, too. For example implausibility between engine rpm value received via CAN and rpm reading of G182. Something wrong with clutch(es)? Incorrect parts installed? What part is G182 reading from? Damaged teeth of impulse wheel? Incorrect mechatronic hw/sw/coding (not compatible with engine)?
 
   #5  

JohnInSeattle

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Implausible signal is the worst DTC description to diagnose. It could be not only electrical but mechanical fault, too. For example implausibility between engine rpm value received via CAN and rpm reading of G182. Something wrong with clutch(es)? Incorrect parts installed? What part is G182 reading from? Damaged teeth of impulse wheel? Incorrect mechatronic hw/sw/coding (not compatible with engine)?
Definitely not mechanical or damaged teeth.
Clutches are perfect as is the entire inside of the transmission, gleaming with zero residue, metallic, rubber or clutch.
Just replaced the DMF (old one seemed fine) so it's not slipping.
This Trans worked in this car until about a year ago,when it developed this issue. So not incorrect parts or coding
I want to try driving with the input speed G182 and the engine RPM graphing, see if they differ.
G182 is the Transmission input sensor, reading from the TCM.

I do have a core DSG 02E that is known working. I can swap the Mechatronic unit for only labor, assuming it's reasonably clean when I open it up.
I know I have to grab the code from the old one and update it.
I assume from the AutoScan that is "Coding: 0000020"?
 
   #6  

Jack@European_Parts

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Proper sensor for air gap of phase?
Did you change correct speed sensor?
The Mech itself could be faulty internally, no?
FOD!
 
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JohnInSeattle

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Proper sensor for air gap of phase?
Did you change correct speed sensor?
FOD!
There is only the one changeable speed sensor in this transmission, all the rest are part of the mechatronic unit and not serviceable.
Yes I verified several times that the sensor is the G182 sensor, if it isn't then I have to change the mechatronic unit in any case.
There was no adjustment to be seen on the sensor, it seats in a hole and is held in place with one bolt.
 
   #8  

Jack@European_Parts

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Just an FYI this transmission is one big dog landmine.
Did you induce the DTC to trace the sensor is indeed correct & load light or shield the wire?
 
   #9  

JohnInSeattle

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Just an FYI this transmission is one big dog landmine.
Did you induce the DTC to trace the sensor is indeed correct & load light or shield the wire?
I have no idea what any of that means.
I have several of these cars with the DSG transmissions, this is the first issue I have seen, it has 170K miles and is mechanically pristine inside.
WAY better than the 09As I have opened up.
I am familiar with shielding wires electrically as I have an electrical engineering degree.
But I don't see how that applies here, I don't think I need to redesign the system.
 
   #11  

JohnInSeattle

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Never mind, you know what your doing than, please carry on and commence, using the alleged "good engineering judgement" you have used so far?

But did you do basic settings?
I have not done basic settings.
And what does the TLA DTC stand for?
What are you referring to?
Can you give me a link to the procedures?
 
   #12  

Jack@European_Parts

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I have not done basic settings.
And what does the TLA DTC stand for?
What are you referring to?
Can you give me a link to the procedures?

Sure.....but WTF is TLA?

Where is "Good engineering Judgment"?

RTFB & JPPSG the WD!

https://forums.ross-tech.com/showth...essional-Problem-Solver-Guide-quot-JPPSG-quot

https://forums.ross-tech.com/showth...get-same-error&p=161939&viewfull=1#post161939

https://erwin.vw.com/erwin/showHome.do

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17100/P0716/001814

17100/P0716/001814 - Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182): Implausible Signal

Possible Symptoms


  • Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON
  • Transmission in Limp Mode
Possible Causes


  • Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182) faulty
  • Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182) faulty
Possible Solutions


  • Check Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182)
  • Check/Replace Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182)
Special Notes


  • When found in 6-Speed Direct Shift Gearbox (DSG/02E), check VW NAR TSB 37-06-07 (2012681):
    • May be stored in Combination with 18148/P1740/005952, which usually indicates faulty Wiring/Connector(s). Check/Replace Wiring and Connector(s) from/to Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182) AND Clutch Temperature Sensor (G509)
123 load lights or loaded diapers!

 
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   #13  

JohnInSeattle

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Lots of good information there, Love JPPSG, very clearly written.
TLA is Three Letter Acronym.
I ran the basic settings last night 061, 060 and 062. Then tried to drive at the various speeds for it to relearn but traffic got in the way, had to just drive for 40 minutes.
Basic settings did not affect the speed sensor issue but did change the shifting for awhile until it relearned.

JPPSG
1. Not sure what the PR-Build data is.
2. Car is completely stock and untouched. Transmission is as far as I can tell, never been removed or opened or if it has then they were very good.
3.
Code:
Monday,15,April,2019,18:38:45:10819
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
VCDS Version: 18.9.1.0 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4437.4
Data version: 20190114 DS296.0
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: 3VWCR31C55M403812   License Plate: BEEBEE
Mileage: 275970km-171479mi   Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 1C (1C - VW New Beetle (1998 > 2010))
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 17 19 25 29 35 37 39 46 54 56 65 75
 
VIN: 3VWCR31C55M403812   Mileage: 275970km-171479miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 038-906-016-BEW.lbl
   Part No SW: 038 906 016 P    HW: 028 101 181 3
   Component: R4 1,9L EDC G000DG  7000  
   Revision: 12345678    Serial number: VWZ5Z0D6261194
   Coding: 0150038
   Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
   VCID: 211F18FF5DDB4E3FB13-5160

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 1 1 1 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 02E-927-770.clb
   Part No SW: 02E 300 041 S    HW: 02E 927 770 AD
   Component: GSG DSG         041 0806  
   Revision: 00004010    Serial number: 00000405270014
   Coding: 0000020
   Shop #: WSC 44551 111 44551
   VCID: 221D17F358DD5527A89-5160

1 Fault Found:
17100 - Transmission Input Speed Sensor (G182) 
            P0716 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ESP-F.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 907 379 M
   Component: ESP FRONT MK60      0102  
   Coding: 0019458
   Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
   VCID: 3431E1ABF229CB974A5-5160

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 1T0-909-605.lbl
   Part No: 6Q0 909 605 AG
   Component: 01 AIRBAG VW71      0710  
   Coding: 0012337
   Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
   VCID: 7CA1098B9AF9C3D7C25-5160

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C0 959 339 D
   Component: BF-Gewichtsens. 004 0005

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 1C0-920-x4x.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 920 951 M
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. M73 V02  
   Coding: 11232
   Shop #: WSC 23069  
   VCID: 2B03FAD72A17946F1BF-4B1E
   3VWCR31C55M403812     VWZ5Z0D6261194

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
   Part No: 6N0 909 901 
   Component: Gateway K<->CAN    V022  
   Coding: 00006
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 70B92DBBC3B1B7B76ED-4B1E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 959 799 G
   Component: 2K Komfortgerát HLO 0004  
   Coding: 00016
   Shop #: WSC 23072  
   VCID: 3B23CA97DA7704EF8BF-4B1E

1 Fault Found:
01044 - Control Module Incorrectly Coded 
            35-00 -  - 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio        Labels: 1J0-035-18x-56.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 035 196 M
   Component:  RADIO DE2         0003  
   Coding: 06031
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 290F00DF20EB867FE93-51CE

No fault code found.

End----------(Elapsed Time: 03:38, VBatt start/end: 13.5V/13.5V)-----------
4. No recent repairs that I know of other than my work.
Problem is intermittent speed flaring and jerking. This happens randomly for about 5-10 minutes then it will be fine, no issues for a day or an hour then jerky again.
I Removed the transmission, inspected the clutches, replaced the sensor, front cover and gaskets.
Also replaced the DMF, pilot bearing, lower front suspension and all four disk brake rotors and pads.
I can now correlate the jerking to the Transmission speed sensor issue, I graphed the engine speed and input speed together.
When there is no issue, the lines are exactly on top of each other.
When the transmission is having the issue there are differences.


The one circled in blue is different, it will occur on it's own multiple times and is more like what I would expect from a bad sensor, the ones in red seem to have something else going on.



5. Transmission sensor was AFT https://www.ebay.com/itm/351990665348

6. Concerning is when it is having the issue, About 5-10 minutes of every 2 hours driving. You can't accelerate, it will not stay in a gear, the car jerks and bucks.
7. Checked the Fuses first.
 
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   #14  

Jack@European_Parts

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TLA is Three Letter Acronym.

Hover your cursor........ RTFB and trace as per WD

TLA of DTC = Diagnostic Trouble Code

Use "Good Engineering Judgment"!

Do do load light and DVOM tests and only use factory parts.
 
   #18  

JohnInSeattle

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And you trust the inductive shield of this part as an Engineer? :rolleyes:
I fully understand, I normally design CNC machine tools and robotics and shield the heck out of everything.

In this case the sensor and wire is inside the transmission case, and is exactly the same four wire flat design as the original.

I don't know what kind of shield I could put on it in there, braided mesh maybe, and if I am opening up the trans again, I am going to change the mechatronic as I do have a spare from a good core.
Also the errors circled in blue are more consistent with a loose connection. the red ones, I have not a clue, but most likely not random noise.

The only source of noise inside there would be the PWM solenoid drives, I can graph the solenoid current on the same graph and see if there is a correlation.
 
   #19  

Jack@European_Parts

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I fully understand, I normally design CNC machine tools and robotics and shield the heck out of everything.

In this case the sensor and wire is inside the transmission case, and is exactly the same four wire flat design as the original.

I don't know what kind of shield I could put on it in there, braided mesh maybe, and if I am opening up the trans again, I am going to change the mechatronic as I do have a spare from a good core.
Also the errors circled in blue are more consistent with a loose connection. the red ones, I have not a clue, but most likely not random noise.

The only source of noise inside there would be the PWM solenoid drives, I can graph the solenoid current on the same graph and see if there is a correlation.​










You are forgetting the spinning of the reluctor to sensor or flywheel or anything which turns sir!

Ground connection to transmission and mech are good?
 
   #20  

JohnInSeattle

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[/B][/COLOR]




You are forgetting the spinning of the reluctor to sensor or flywheel or anything which turns sir!

Ground connection to transmission and mech are good?
Yes, I am not used to having spinning magnets around.

The ground is good, all OEM connections are in excellent shape and I made sure they are tight and clean.
 
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