VW 1.8t 20v powered kit car

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veedabowlu

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I do not know exactly which forum to post this in, but seems "retrofits" fits...

I have a friend requesting me to build him a track/kit car. So we are brainstorming about

1) using a 1.8t 20V engine (ME7.5 DBW 1.8t ecu)with a DSG transmission.
2) plan on using the steering column for shift paddles... DSG shifter for P, R N D Sport...
3) to install the FWD engine, trans, axles, spindles/hubs into the rear of the car, making it RWD.
4) front spindles will also be FWD parts... any problem having 4 front wheel speed sensors
4a) Other thought is to use rear trailing arms/suspension parts from AWD VW/Audi, so I could still use mechanical/cable parking brake.

With getting the ME7.5 ecu and the DSG to work together, do we also need the gateway? We plan on using either a Beetle OR Golf instrument cluster, and installing the 1.8t 20V era mechanical/manual A/C... driver is needing a/c. in Miami.
 
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Uwe

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I think you might be in uncharted territory getting a DSG to work with an old-school 1.8T ECU. For a DSG to work properly, the ECU has to be able to take "orders" from it.

There were DSGs in cars that didn't have a proper Gateway, but I think they were all TDIs (New Beetle).

Beyond that, I have no other thoughts at the moment.

-Uwe-
 
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veedabowlu

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I think you might be in uncharted territory getting a DSG to work with an old-school 1.8T ECU. For a DSG to work properly, the ECU has to be able to take "orders" from it.

There were DSGs in cars that didn't have a proper Gateway, but I think they were all TDIs (New Beetle).

Beyond that, I have no other thoughts at the moment.

-Uwe-


In 2002, Volkswagen produced the Golf R32 in Europe as a 2003 model year. It was the world's first production car with a dual-clutch gearbox (DSG) — available for the German market....
I'm sure these were ME 7.5ish ecu's
 
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Uwe

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In 2002, Volkswagen produced the Golf R32 in Europe as a 2003 model year. It was the world's first production car with a dual-clutch gearbox (DSG) — available for the German market....
I'm sure these were ME 7.5ish ecu's
IIRC, they were ME 7.1.

-Uwe-
 
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rhinopower

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The 3.2 is me7.1 yes. There was no 1.8t with dsg. If it was me, I would be looking at using a newer ecu that worked with the dsg, and rewirinf and remapping it to work with the 1.8t
 
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veedabowlu

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The 3.2 is me7.1 yes. There was no 1.8t with dsg. If it was me, I would be looking at using a newer ecu that worked with the dsg, and rewirinf and remapping it to work with the 1.8t
Well the only DSG cars i know of other than this older German Golf R come with direct injection, which we are trying to stay away from....

Suggestions for getting this 1.8t 20V engine to work with a dsg transmission would be greatly appreciated.
 
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veedabowlu

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IIRC, they were ME 7.1.

-Uwe-
I only have access to USDM repair/wiring diagrams.... Uwe, care to elaborate a little more.... will ME7.1 control 1.8t 20v engine for this application, preferably DBW ecu.
 
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I only have access to USDM repair/wiring diagrams.... Uwe, care to elaborate a little more.... will ME7.1 control 1.8t 20v engine for this application, preferably DBW ecu.
IIRC (and I may well be wrong) ME 7.1 and 7.5 were extremely similar, 7.1 for naturally aspirated engines and ME 7.5 for forced induction. Lots of cars/platforms came with interchangeable ME 7.1 or 7.5, for example, the Passat used ME 7.1 for 2.8L 30V V6 configurations and ME 7.5 for the 1.8T 20V V6. And on that platform, they used the same 01V transmission with basically the same TCMs, just software changes. So that R32 DSG might get you close, but it'd be a rare and possibly hard-to-find hardware configuration, and you'd still have some custom programming to do.

Can I ask why you're in love with the 20V 1.8T for this project? If you want a DSG, that's going to be ever so much easier with an EA888 2.0T.
 
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veedabowlu

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1.8t 20V tuning/aftermarket support is HUGE... the 2.0T...pain in the A$$, cleaning carbon from intake valves, has my friend turned off regarding ANY direct
injection engines.
 
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1.8t 20V tuning/aftermarket support is HUGE...
Very true, but same goes for the 2.0T.

the 2.0T...pain in the A$$, cleaning carbon from intake valves, has my friend turned off regarding ANY direct injection engines.
You stated that you're looking to design and construct a rear-engined modified 1.8T track car (on an unspecified chassis) with ME 7.5 and working ABS/ESP and air conditioning, and you want to graft a DSG onto this. You have a lot of other design challenges to think about, before you get to "what happens if I grandma-drive this thing for six or eight years without opening the intake manifold ever again".

If you get to that point in your design process, the simple answer is "catch can". If you really want to go all-out, and you're willing to import odd one-off European market parts (ala that R32 DSG), import the manifold and injector set from a European EA888 with dual (direct and port) injection. Problem solved.

I have a special place in my heart for the 5V family of engines. I drove a 2.8 30V for many years, had it apart for a top end rebuild. My oldest kid is driving a 1.8T 20V, and my two younger kids will probably get something 1.8T 20V powered when the time comes (certainly the price will be right, by that point in time). I'm a fan. But, grafting a DSG to this project would be an extremely serious undertaking. Making it fit and bolt together would only be the beginning.
 
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Uwe

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You have a lot of other design challenges to think about, before you get to "what happens if I grandma-drive this thing for six or eight years without opening the intake manifold ever again".
A DSG would probably fail before a 2.0T carbons up. ;)

No, I'm not a fan of DSGs. I like how they work, but I don't like their lack of reliability.

If I were involved in this project, I'd tell the customer: If you want a 1.8T, we're going to need to use either a manual trans or a traditional ("slushbox") automatic. If you want a DSG, we're going to have to use an engine that knows how to take "orders" from a DSG, so a 2.0T or a 3.2 VR6.

-Uwe-
 
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jyoung8607

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A DSG would probably fail before a 2.0T carbons up. ;)

No, I'm not a fan of DSGs. I like how they work, but I don't like their lack of reliability.
On August 15, in the year of our Lord 2018, Uwe Ross said something nice about a DSG. I feel we should memorialize this event somehow. :D
 
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veedabowlu

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un check the easy box...

Very true, but same goes for the 2.0T.


You stated that you're looking to design and construct a rear-engined modified 1.8T track car (on an unspecified chassis) with ME 7.5 and working ABS/ESP and air conditioning, and you want to graft a DSG onto this. You have a lot of other design challenges to think about, before you get to "what happens if I grandma-drive this thing for six or eight years without opening the intake manifold ever again".

If you get to that point in your design process, the simple answer is "catch can". If you really want to go all-out, and you're willing to import odd one-off European market parts (ala that R32 DSG), import the manifold and injector set from a European EA888 with dual (direct and port) injection. Problem solved.

I have a special place in my heart for the 5V family of engines. I drove a 2.8 30V for many years, had it apart for a top end rebuild. My oldest kid is driving a 1.8T 20V, and my two younger kids will probably get something 1.8T 20V powered when the time comes (certainly the price will be right, by that point in time). I'm a fan. But, grafting a DSG to this project would be an extremely serious undertaking. Making it fit and bolt together would only be the beginning.
1) I already have a chassis builder, that has built various power plants into his chassis'
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so we can build/specify where drive train mounts go.
2) Yes working ME 7.5, and working ABS/ESP, with mechanical 1.8t 20V style mechanical air conditioning
3) Customer currently owns a '07 RS4, that TWICE, I have had to carbon clean the intake valves in 20-20k miles, and he does not drive like your grandma...so customers choice to stay away from direct injection engines
4) I do know of the dual injection (direct & port) system, and will chat with him about that... I'm just looking into alternative options.
5)I have built various engine conversions... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj9XmA44DxY2.8 VR6 into 2007 Audi A4, controlled with standalone...also a pain in the A$$ 440Hp at the wheels
1.8t 20V AEB into 1983 VW GTi, converted to DBW, with a VW MK4 manual transmission 400HP at the wheels
6) again looking into alternative options
 
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jyoung8607

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1) I already have a chassis builder, that has built various power plants into his chassis'
Very cool!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for unique swaps and epic projects. Just sharing my impression that ME 7.5 with a modern DSG would be especially challenging from an electronics, CAN communication, and ECU/TCM programming perspective, and there are much easier paths to follow.

If adversity drives you, I hereby promise: upon receipt of Youtube video of this project running and driving no more than five years from today's date, I will commission and mail to you a plaque you can mount to the car, stating "jyoung8607 from the Internet said this couldn't be done". ;)
 
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veedabowlu

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I have seen both of those during my research...
the nefarious one has stalled...
the dsg-corrado, can't seem to get any information...
 
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veedabowlu

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Other thought that comes to mind is there a longitudinal FWD DSG... this would make it a tru mid engine car.
I have thought about the VW MK5 R32 engine... (not direct injection)
1) mounted longitudinal would give better weight balance...
2) R32 engine/dsg combo did come factory, (but will hang more weight on the pass rear side of chassis)
3) forced induction is available...

I have not ruled out the 1.8t 20V yet.... so keep your thinking caps on:)
 
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veedabowlu

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looking at wiring diagrams, 2004-2006 mk1 tt 3.2 didn't have a gateway... just can high, can low ECU to DSG (which flavor of DSG?) no gateway...
throw in the cluster,
throw in the shifter,
throw in the ABS for vehicle speed signal?

still seems like i'm missing something.... yes...no?

From what I am finding, gateway did not show up until about 2007...
even then, J533 role of the Gateway (also known as the Data bus diagnostic interface J533) is the exchange of data between the CAN data bus systems (‘powertrain CAN data bus’, ‘convenience CAN data bus’ and ‘infotainment CAN data bus’) and the conversion of diagnostic data from CAN data bus systems to K-cable and vice versa so the data can be used by vehicle diagnosis, testing and information systems like the dealer VAS tools and Vagcom/VCDS.
Can I use a stripped down, unchecked version of the installation list to cooperated with the ME7.5? then where does the J519 fit into this picture?
 
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Uwe

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looking at wiring diagrams, 2004-2006 mk1 tt 3.2 didn't have a gateway...
Correct, very much like the Mk.4 VWs, e.g. the Mk.4 R32.

-Uwe-
 
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