CFFB camshaft and crankshaft sync

   #1  

Bambur

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Hello,

is there a way to check the synchronization (torsion) of cam- and crankshaft on CFFB engine with VCDS? I mean the same parameter as given by Group 4 on PD VAG engines.

My VCDS current version is as follows

VCDS Version: 16.8.3.1
Data version: 20161010 DS267.0

Thank you very much in advance!
 
   #3  

Bambur

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Uwe, thank you for the reply!

My questions is not about the auto-scan, but rather the measurement block(s). The parameter I am interested is not present in the scan.

I am wondering how I can see the synchronization of cam- and crankshaft on new VAG TDI CR engines like CFFB with VCDS. I used to check the torsion parameter in Group 4 on TDI PD engines. Is there a similar thing on VAG TDI CR's?
 
   #4  

PetrolDave

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My questions is not about the auto-scan, but rather the measurement block(s). The parameter I am interested is not present in the scan.
Maybe, just maybe, the parameter block will be present if you use the latest version of VCDS?
 
   #5  

Uwe

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And maybe, just maybe, it would be helpful to know exactly what ECU he has, which would of course be shown in an Auto-Scan. ;)

-Uwe-
 
   #6  

Bambur

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And maybe, just maybe, it would be helpful to know exactly what ECU he has, which would of course be shown in an Auto-Scan. ;)

-Uwe-

Uwe, sorry I did not figure out there are different ECU's. Here is mine

Address 01: Engine (J623-CFFB) Labels: 03L-906-018-CFF.clb
Part No SW: 03L 906 018 LE HW: 03L 907 309 AE
Component: R4 2,0L EDC H28 4571
Revision: 41H28--- Serial number: 00000000000000
Coding: 00190032042401080000
Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018LE 003009
ROD: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018LE.rod
VCID: 78FFE7AFC3A4718284-802C

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0

How do I check cam- and crankshaft sync? :)
 
   #7  

Fredrick Awuor

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Uwe, sorry I did not figure out there are different ECU's. Here is mine

Address 01: Engine (J623-CFFB) Labels: 03L-906-018-CFF.clb
Part No SW: 03L 906 018 LE HW: 03L 907 309 AE
Component: R4 2,0L EDC H28 4571
Revision: 41H28--- Serial number: 00000000000000
Coding: 00190032042401080000
Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018LE 003009
ROD: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018LE.rod
VCID: 78FFE7AFC3A4718284-802C

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0

How do I check cam- and crankshaft sync? :)

Hello,follow instructions if you want help and aren't disclosing enough info surely....Heed UWE's advise and post a complete unedited AUTOSCAN period!
 
   #8  

Bambur

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Somehow I have a feeling I am not getting any help here. Anyway, here is a complete autoscan :)

Code:
 Chassis Type: 5N (7N0)
Scan: 01 03 08 09 10 15 16 17 19 25 2E 42 44 46 52 53 56 61 62 72
         

VIN: WVGZZZ5NZEW123456   Mileage: 39510km-24550miles

01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: Malfunction 0010
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
10-Park/Steer Assist -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: Malfunction 0010
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
2E-Media Player 3 -- Status: Malfunction 1010
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: Malfunction 0010
53-Parking Brake -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: Malfunction 0010
61-Battery Regul. -- Status: OK 0000
62-Door, Rear Left -- Status: OK 0000
72-Door, Rear Right -- Status: OK 0000

Would somebody now get to my question please?
 
   #9  

Uwe

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We kicked this around at the office a bit yesterday and none of us found an answer.

One question that was asked is: "What makes him his cam and crank are out of sync?

Another one in my mind is: Why do you think data like that, which was important on a PD engine (with cam actuated injectors) is going to be available on a CR engine (with completely computer-actuated injectors)?

Also, what you posted there is is still not a complete Auto-Scan. ;)

-Uwe-
 
   #10  

golfi_vend

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If You have bad timing a fault code will tell.
 
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   #11  

Bambur

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Uwe, thank you for the reply! I find this kind of measurement useful for monitoring the tooth-belt (aka timing belt) condition. With time belt gets stetched out and I could see that with my 1.9 PD TDI. I am hoping to find a way to inspect that on modern VAG CR TDI's as well.

Changing the timing tooth belt on PD TDI's, it was very easy to install it 1-2 degrees off, and many people complained about rough idle and fuel economy. It is not just the injection timing, but also the physical intake and exhaust valves' timing, which cannot be compensated by the ECU, except for the actual PD injection timing.

Btw, what is ENG106252 Synchronous angle for?
 
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   #12  

Uwe

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Btw, what is ENG106252 Synchronous angle for?
Good question. Unfortunately, VW does not bother to tell us these things.

-Uwe-
 
   #14  

Henrick

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PD injectors are also electronically controlled.
Valve timing in these TDIs (be it either PD or CR) is VERY important (as well as CR pump timing, opposed to what most people think/say).
CR belt is very long (160 teeth) as opposed to PD belt (120 teeth).
Besides in the TB path there are much more rollers and idlers (1 tensioner + 3 idlers on CR vs 1 tensioner + 1 idler on PD). Over time/miles they get worn (actually by 140k km all idlers except the large one have play and bearing noise) so free play is introduced. This impactis timing as well.
The belt is prone to stretching, more or less, too. It's 25 mm wide, as opposed to PD which is 30 mm.
And finally CRs have almost twice as long TB replacement intervals as PD had (120k km for early PDs and 210k km for some CRs).
Removing TB cover to inspect the TB system is not that straight forward on CR as it's on PD - much more components will need to be removed.

So monitoring the cam/crank sync angle makes sense.

Answering OP's original question:
try to find a measuring block with something as "start of synchronization" in it's name. I believe the engine must be running for that. However, if I remember correctly, the reading is a bit different than what you were used to see in PD engines (degrees between crank and cam).
 
   #15  

Mu81n

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Hello All. I’ve got the same engine, but I cannot find ENG106252 Synchronous angle in advanced measuring blocks? I seen on other various posts, engine codes like CAGA for e.g. allow this channel to be viewed, is their an alternative IDE I can view? Oh how I wish I was back on CAN, alas, efficiency allows it not.
 
   #16  

Uwe

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Hello All. I’ve got the same engine, but I cannot find ENG106252 Synchronous angle in advanced measuring blocks? I seen on other various posts, engine codes like CAGA for e.g. allow this channel to be viewed, is their an alternative IDE I can view? Oh how I wish I was back on CAN, alas, efficiency allows it not.
Please post an Auto-Scan so we can see exactly what ECU you have and what ASAM data it uses.

-Uwe-
 
   #17  

Mu81n

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Please post an Auto-Scan so we can see exactly what ECU you have and what ASAM data it uses.

-Uwe-

Apologies for the late reply. Please see below:

Code:
Wednesday,06,March,2019,18:03:08:60391
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 18.9.1.0 (x64)
Data version: 20190114 DS296.0
www.Ross-Tech.com

VIN: WVWZZZ1KZAW419147   License Plate: SB10VEK
Mileage: 217150km-134930mi   Repair Order: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chassis Type: 1K-VW36 (1K0)

Scan: 01 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 25 2E 42 44 46 52 56 62 72

VIN: WVWZZZ1KZAW419147   Mileage: 217150km-134930miles

01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: OK 0000
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
2E-Media Player 3 -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: Malfunction 0010
62-Door, Rear Left -- Status: OK 0000
72-Door, Rear Right -- Status: OK 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine (J623-CFFB)       Labels:. 03L-906-018-CFF.clb

   Part No SW: 03L 906 018     HW: 03L 907 309 R
   Component: R4 2.0l TDI   H21 9978  
   Revision: 42H21---    Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 00190012042500080000
   Shop #: WSC 52856 002 1048576
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018 003014
   ROD: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018D.rod
   VCID: 67D82FEE9E8633727C-8032

No fault code found.

Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels:. 1K0-907-379-60EC1F.clb

   Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 AH    HW: 1K0 907 379 AH
   Component: ESP MK60EC1   H30 0107  
   Revision: 00H30001    
   Coding: 163B400D09230003680C02E890200082340000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 78FA7C92CB38AC8AE5-802C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 08: Auto HVAC (J301)       Labels:| 3C8-907-336.clb
   Part No SW: 3C8 907 336 AB    HW: 3C8 907 336 AB
   Component: Climatic      H14 0305  
   Revision: 00009001    
   Coding: 0000000002
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Climatic A01005
   ROD: EV_ClimaBasis_VW36.rod
   VCID: 6DD45DC6BC7A192206-8038

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels:. 1K0-937-08x-09.clb

   Part No SW: 1K0 937 086 C    HW: 1K0 937 086 C
   Component: BCM PQ35  M   103 0575  
   Revision: 00103 AG    

   Coding: 48180A3A9025F1C044080080000081E443010088524D8160648000200000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 306A84B263C8B4CA6D-8064
   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1K2 955 119 F  Labels: 1KX-955-119.CLB
   Component: Wischer 27041  21  0512 
   Coding: 009795

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1K8 951 171 
   Component: DWA-Sensor 00  001 0104 
   Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1K8 951 605 A
   Component: LIN BACKUP HO  H11 9004 

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 15: Airbags (J234)       Labels:| 5K0-959-655.clb

   Part No SW: 5K0 959 655 D    HW: 5K0 959 655 D
   Component: AirbagVW10    037 0606  
   Serial number: 003FKRA79E0J  
   Coding: 00003133
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360 A01011
   ROD: EV_AirbaVW10SMEVW360.rod
   VCID: 3B70A39EB28E4792C8-806E
   Crash sensor for side airbag: driver side: 

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354     HW: 5K0 959 354 
   Component: S.Sens.Fahr.V  H01 ---- 
   Serial number: 3572MSME04670252ZZZJ

   Crash sensor for side airbag: front passenger side: 
   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 5K0 959 354     HW: 5K0 959 354 
   Component: S.Sens.Beif.V  H01 ---- 
   Serial number: 3582MSME0C037452ZZZR

   Crash sensor for side airbag: rear: driver side: 
   Component: S.Sens.Fahr.H  --- ---- 
   Serial number: 3512QSME06125D17ZZZQ

   Crash sensor for side airbag: rear: passenger side: 
   Component: S.Sens.Beif.H  --- ---- 
   Serial number: 3522QSME22145D16ZZZQ

No fault code found.


Address 16: Steering wheel        Labels: 1K0-953-549-MY9.lbl
   Part No SW: 1K0 953 549 CF    HW: 1K0 953 549 CF
   Component: J0527           056 0111  
   Coding: 0000532
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 78FA7C920B38AC8AE5-802C
   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3C8 959 537 D  Labels: 3C8-959-537.CLB
   Component: E221__MFL-TK6   H06 0022  
   Coding: 00000226
   Shop #: WSC 00000  

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 17: Instruments (J285)       Labels:| 5K0-920-xxx-17.clb-SRI1
   Part No SW: 5K0 920 970 N    HW: 5K0 920 970 N
   Component: KOMBI         H03 0305  
   Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 470B00
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09 A04052
   ROD: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09_004_VW32.rod
   VCID: 397CB996B8B27582DA-806C

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels:. 1K0-907-530-V4.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 530 AD    HW: 1K0 907 951 
   Component: J533  Gateway   H07 0112  
   Revision:   H07 01    Serial number: 020510F1011493
   Coding: E9807F06000212000003
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 69DC29D6409205026A-803C

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 25: Immobilizer (J334)       Labels:| 5K0-920-xxx-25.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 953 234     HW: 5K0 953 234 
   Component: IMMO          H03 0305  
   Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 000000
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09 A03005
   ROD: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09.rod
   VCID: 6ADE56DA8D940E1A63-803E

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 2E: Media Player 3 (J650)       Labels:. 5N0-035-342.lbl
   Part No SW: 5N0 035 342 B    HW: 5N0 035 342 B
   Component: SG EXT.PLAYER H13 0090  
   Revision: A1001003    Serial number: 7667994532    
   Coding: 010000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 264662EA510CEA7A87-8072

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 42: Door Elect, Driver        Labels:. 1K0-959-701-MIN3.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 959 701 B    HW: 5K0 959 701 B
   Component: Tuer-SG         009 2114  
   Coding: 0000692
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 316C81B6A8C2BDC262-8064

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 44: Steering Assist        Labels: 1K0-909-14x-GEN3.clb
   Part No: 1K0 909 144 J
   Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl. 70     3001  
   Revision: 00H17000    
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 316C81B6A8C2BDC262-8064

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass.        Labels:. 1K0-959-702-MIN3.clb

   Part No SW: 5K0 959 702 B    HW: 5K0 959 702 B

   Component: Tuer-SG         009 2114  

   Coding: 0000692

   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200

   VCID: 326E8EBAADC486DA1B-8066

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 56: Radio (J503)       Labels:. 5M0-035-1xx-56.clb

   Part No SW: 1K0 035 186 AA    HW: 1K0 035 186 AA
   Component: RCD310 EU     H11 5032  
   Revision: -----01S    Serial number: VWZ4Z2K1207605
   Coding: 0100040004
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   VCID: 65C425E66C8A21624E-8030

4 Faults Found:

00856 - Radio Antenna 

            007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 00100111
                    Fault Priority: 5
                    Fault Frequency: 254
                    Reset counter: 30
                    Mileage: 202480 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2013.03.03
                    Time: 07:52:28

00821 - Antenna 2 for Radio (R93) 

            011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 00101011
                    Fault Priority: 5
                    Fault Frequency: 13
                    Reset counter: 13
                    Mileage: 215435 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2013.07.09
                    Time: 14:05:47

00856 - Radio Antenna 

            011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 00101011
                    Fault Priority: 5
                    Fault Frequency: 14
                    Reset counter: 13
                    Time Indication: 0

00821 - Antenna 2 for Radio (R93) 

            007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent

             Freeze Frame:

                    Fault Status: 00100111
                    Fault Priority: 5
                    Fault Frequency: 4
                    Reset counter: 10
                    Mileage: 215996 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2013.07.15
                    Time: 14:25:38

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 62: Door, Rear Left        Labels:. 1K0-959-703-GEN3.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 959 703 C    HW: 5K0 959 703 C
   Component: Tuer-SG         007 2101  
   Coding: 0000144
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 1012552
   VCID: 346288A257D088EA09-8060

No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 72: Door, Rear Right        Labels:. 1K0-959-704-GEN3.clb

   Part No SW: 5K0 959 704 C    HW: 5K0 959 704 C
   Component: Tuer-SG         007 2101  
   Coding: 0000144
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 1012552
   VCID: 3564B5A65CAA91E23E-8060

No fault code found.

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 02:16)--------------------------

Wednesday,06,March,2019,18:24:06:60391
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 18.9.1.0 (x64)
Data version: 20190114 DS296.0
www.Ross-Tech.com
 
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   #18  

Mu81n

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I wonder if the below is of any use for monitoring, especially the camshaft position, start less end = sum of angle? Or along those line:

IDE00021 Engine speed 777 /min
IDE00351 Main injection: start of activation -4.00 °
IDE00365 Injection amount deviation cylinder 1 -0.36 mg/stroke
IDE00366 Injection amount deviation cylinder 2 0.23 mg/stroke
IDE00367 Injection amount deviation cylinder 3 0.50 mg/stroke
IDE00368 Injection amount deviation cylinder 4 -0.37 mg/stroke
IDE00394 Camshaft position: start of phase window 122.78 °
IDE00395 Camshaft position: end of phase window 250.84 °
 
   #19  

Uwe

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I don't see it in the data for that ECU either, sorry.

-Uwe-
 
   #20  

Mu81n

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I don't see it in the data for that ECU either, sorry.

-Uwe-

Thank you for the swift response. Tis seems I am doomed. I don’t see why VAG can’t do this across the board, where timing/crank-cam correlation can be seen via VCDS. Unfortunately, the garage that did the initial work failed epically (wrong crank locking pin!) Although rectified, I suspect my fuel pump & cam isn’t as per spec (good enough to run & not flag any faults-is that even possible?), to elaborate, as one of the posters mentioned on this site (https://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?7889-Help-please-2-0TDI-CR-Cambelt/page2), when the pin is locked for the fuel pump, this is the optimum level for the pump to operate. Which I assume will also lead to better fuel efficiency.
 
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