2000 tdi beetle long cold start

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Jack@European_Parts

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Each request is a separate log and labor operation during being cranked or idled.

Timing should be displayed in raw numbers in block 000 with ten fields........

04 will be in basic settings ( the actual timing ) Telling ecu enter fixed base mode.........

08 will be in measuring blocks ( The timing as adjusted by the ecu programming strategy ) Watching.......
 
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Larry Manton

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Thanks,

Larimore
 
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So I did plug the vag in this morning 46F and unplugged ECT the vag read 9C, which is IMO probably the resistance in that lead too the J248. Then putting the ECT plugged in and in Ice water 1.2C I have glow, then I do some more testing. I notice I have glow up until I get too about 10C, the have none. IN truth 48 to 50 F here when it is cold and damp (feels like 40) now I see may not command glow, but on a cold start up this little Turkey does not like it.

So Up side it is working, down side I would like too trick it to come on @ slightly higher temps but still chilly and damp. Did note glow time of about 2/3 seconds IMO, and read a thread that that can be adjusted. What I would like is too adjust the on command. IMO, this could be accomplished by an on and switch in the #3 lead tricking the system to think it is umplugged, but then probably would get a code. If I put any resistor in the wire it would then skew the temp reading @ all levels and jerk the injection and timing around.

Also have noted with the ECT umplugged it did code a circuit problem with the glow light itself, but it has never worked.

Also noted long caustic threads on the TDI glow issues, when now I see in fact may be nothing wrong with it but maybe the strategy needs adjusting.

Jack, again thanks for you time and expertise, much appreciated.

Larimore
Here is the how to extend glow plug time:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1156568&postcount=1
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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I hope this helps out all of you who have cold starting issues. But also be aware that glow time is not the only thing to affect cold starts. Do not do this mod to mask another underlying problem. Poor injection timing (mechanical) will also affect cold starts and you should check & adjust that as well before trying this adjustment.

Yup but not advised....... /\

Carbon build up will be the enemy..........
 
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Larry Manton

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Interesting on the mod, but will look indepth else where. My problem is not length of glow time as have noted, but no glow at all. IN my case if mechanically induced I only need about 2 seconds of glow to make it happen. Advanced the injection timing a hair yesterday as noted was on the edge of bottom of the graph, meaning retarded but in spec, seemed to start better. Computer went on the fritz today so could not track it. Will still post all the logs as you requested trying to learn this system best as can. As far as cold starts is it advised to set cloud on the advanced side of the grid, or as long as it is in the grid it is okay. Read on Wiki advanced helps on cold starts but too much is not good.

Jack, trying to bone up on all of this. Wondering what are the right perameters on the cold start injection numbers. I don't propose to understand it, but guessing it tweeks injection ADV/RETARD depending on temps.

If timing were already too advanced, then possible the Cold start would even advance it more when cold, don't know, just asking?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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If timing were already too advanced, then possible the Cold start would even advance it more when cold, don't know, just asking?
Bingo Larrymore & gets a star........
progress.gif
:D


If timing is static advanced it will start better from commencement of fuel and crank speed.

Keep in mind the ECU & advance system itself....... by means of the commencement valve ( cold start injector in RB ) can only be adjusted ( the rotor barrel ) once PSI has been achieved through the galleries of the TDI pump and rotor head & to do so when switched electronically.

This is why mechanicals of the pump are so important at the commencement of injection baseline.

All of these things going on and the time to report data or alter it within the controller take "time"!
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack,

As a side note, have noted folks doing what they call a hammer mod, looks spooky too me. But seems the # they or maybe should be on this is about 4. That stated is that number around 4, then the pump must be addressed by a pump shop??? I don't see any of that as an issue with mine.

My pump by the way I had calibrated the last time I had a no start and it is up too snuff, again just trying to put all the information in my arsenal I can.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, have my known good 2000 here @ work and got to look @ the number from cold start up to warm. Did not log any of that, but will on the Beetle.

Noted Injection quanity around 2, and some forums say 4, my guess is they are trying to jack them up and looking for more power, I don't........just trying too understand what a good base line would be for history. As we know when working on cars..........what does a good one look like.

The cold start on this unit percent was around 94 initially then dropped over time, then ended @ about 2.2 basically nothing. Injection was around 5 BTC specified and also actual, then ended @ almost .4 when finally warm. Thinking this gives me some bench marks too work with.

Just trying to get another gold star.

Larimore
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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You need to look at timing in basic settings........ 0x01-04-000 and log the data while watching field 2 to determine when cold what the "baseline" is in comparison to fuel temp in field 9

A good baseline cold would be 75-85 and in the hundreds when back in measuring blocks.

You do understand that when you are in "basic settings" 04 that timing becomes static right for observation?

Do not do no hammer mod!
 
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Larry Manton

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You need to look at timing in basic settings........ 0x01-04-000 and log the data while watching field 2 to determine when cold what the "baseline" is in comparison to fuel temp in field 9

A good baseline cold would be 75-85 and in the hundreds when back in measuring blocks.

You do understand that when you are in "basic settings" 04 that timing becomes static right for observation?

Do not do no hammer mod!

Jack, what could possible be wrong using a hammer on an mechanical/electronic part?

That stated did notice the injection value on the automatic is about 3.8 verses the stick which is about 2.2, I might conclude a higher fueling rate for the auto do loss, might be wrong.

Larimore.
 
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Larry Manton

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Larrymore........I bet timing is out when you think it's good.

This would indeed explain the start condition based on the information presented.

"Listen to me"........ The glow plug system is most likely not in error.

When car starts hard & due to short glow period & without a glow light is normal based on temp ECU strategy.

The reason it starts easier when manually igniting the glows, is you are heating the combustion chamber by doing so.

When timing is retarded and this excess fuel isn't burned due to being cold or lacking heat of compression, hence why the starter has to crank longer.

Basics.........

Now please post logs of timing cold and hot & with transition + commencement with VCDS.

0x01-04-000 ( while cranking during cold start issue and running )
0x01-08-000 ( while cranking during cold start issue and running )

0x01-03 > start commencement output test, then proceed immediately while also logging to 0x01-08-000 engine idling.

Okay Jack, working on this, this infers I can do two logs @ one time, not sure or aware of this.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, as the beetle is on stands, put light on Jetta, and yes it also has no glow until running, and I would say that is wrong, Jack says maybe no. My partner has always commented that sounds wrong, as a cloud of smoke after hard cranks, always starts, then all is good.

I have asked before, but seems ASS backwards. Why does both have no glow period until KOER. Both do it so must be stratagy, but I know of no diesels that does this on cold morning starts. And yes if timing was off by some but not a runability problem they will start, but not easy. Or maybe there will be a glow light with KOEO, but temps must be considered by ECU low enough to warrant this. I don't know as have not dropped below 32F /0C here yet.

Going home and working on the logging and getting the hang of it, waiting to send you right data and not something of no use.

Have noted in Basic I see numbers of early then something like 7BTDC, the goes to LATE, 4 BTDC, then post Cold start also. Now if you go over to 01 the numbers are more like specified and actual and are spot on, and they are more like 0BTDC, and .04 or 0 but almost align, but nothing like 7 or 4. Also if you look @ timing Graph a hair retarded just below center, but well with in range, and no matter what thread you look on this seems to be the litmus test, but now I wonder.

You asked if I understood one of these PIDs was static, I said yes, but not so sure now, yes maybe I'm wrong, deal with it. When you say static would a good comparison be like pulling a spout plug on a distributor thus removing any electonic offset, I can think of no other way of stating it.

Thanks for you patience, just trying to get a grip on all this. They say this is a simple engine, when actually I find the common rail easier too look @ and know where everything is because I can actually see where cam and crank are, but this is a cool motor.

Also when we say timing, we have no reference other than injection pump which we set with a pin, with hopefully all the other stars aligned, meaning crank on the mark, and cam locked in grove. So in the end our timing that we are using as I see it is all stated by the pump, and that assuming all the other stars align, which may not be the case. NOW without a CPS or CMPS we actually don't have any way to account for wear and tear. So you say my timing might be off, and might be right but can't look @ it dynamically like I could viewing it on a scope.

Also, today tried to graph timing acutal/specified and got a RED FLAG, saying some strange wording (CAN'T SPAWN VCS,) Like I'm not struggling enough, JACK, I am not trying to copulate with my PC, that is carrying they cyber porn just a little too far, what gives.

Learning in progress

Larimore.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Have noted in Basic I see numbers of early then something like 7BTDC, the goes to LATE, 4 BTDC, then post Cold start also. Now if you go over to 01 the numbers are more like specified and actual and are spot on, and they are more like 0BTDC, and .04 or 0 but almost align, but nothing like 7 or 4. Also if you look @ timing Graph a hair retarded just below center, but well with in range, and no matter what thread you look on this seems to be the litmus test, but now I wonder.

Please stop reporting this Larrymore it isn't relevant.......

Please only report exact measuring block or in this case "basic setting channels" I request. I have requested only 000 to be logged in 04 and 08.

Also when we say timing, we have no reference other than injection pump which we set with a pin, with hopefully all the other stars aligned, meaning crank on the mark, and cam locked in grove. So in the end our timing that we are using as I see it is all stated by the pump, and that assuming all the other stars align, which may not be the case. NOW without a CPS or CMPS we actually don't have any way to account for wear and tear. So you say my timing might be off, and might be right but can't look @ it dynamically like I could viewing it on a scope.

Incorrect........ first we have the G28 and then we have the # 3 injector deviation and based on the mechanicals.
Focus only on the data I request and stop going off the reservation until you understand how the stuff really works.

So far there are no logs in this thread I requested! :banghead:
Also, today tried to graph timing acutal/specified and got a RED FLAG, saying some strange wording (CAN'T SPAWN VCS,) Like I'm not struggling enough, JACK, I am not trying to copulate with my PC, that is carrying they cyber porn just a little too far, what gives.

No graph........ STFO of graphs and use raw numbers and again, I requested from block/basics 000 please...... and no other!
Trying to make this as simple as possible...........

Do as I say not as you think....... ;)

Send me phone number in PM or schedule a call with me to chat NC.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, will PM you with phone #, not trying to be difficult, hope you understand that.

Larrimore
 
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Larry Manton

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CAN'T SPAWN VCS,??? means what?

Larrimore[/QUOTE]
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack yeah, more technology, my mailbox has been full from day one, out of my pay grade, will call.
 
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Larry Manton

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Call successful..........Hope it was helpful!

:rolleyes:

Don't tell people I am mellow on the phone ........it is important I maintain my position as resident asshole.

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?8894-THE-FOD-FUN-THREAD-quot-GIVE-BEFORE-IT-HURTS-quot-!

'

Jack, successful, 4 sure. And yes your phone presence was not what I expected, and did not care. Thought I had the wrong number, expected to hear somebody with a New York accent, and Sad but true the curt that usually goes with it, and NO, not everybody from New York Is rude, but sure can be.

The video Jack, so not PC..............guns, violence, hunting.................you could get banned from internenet.,.........good stuff.




So this car @ present has a bypass on the glow in my effor to figure it out, (my bad) Prior to talking in depth with Nostra A/H Jack. So this morning with no glow, timing advanced farther than normal spec (about 84 when warm) to account for crappy fuel ect, and BANG, makes about 4 revolutions and it is running, not even any smoke. Has no glow and I probably fried the relay in my quest for whatever. Remind me to tell you about the rag I sucked into our sprinter, yeah, put it their so I would not drop anything in the intake, good intentions don't always get good result. Is funny now, not @ the time, and ran great until the the turbo came up a mile down the road, then drove it all the way into the valve of @2, but I know I'm the only one that does dumb stuff.

Never did define on the relay J52 with 7 pins whom does what as no nomenclature on the side like most relays, 1 main spade asuming pulling the bulk of the power, then 2 smaller ones for Bifurification, and 4 small pins, and not clearly marked for I'm sure exciting the realay, and during my quest for the holy grail, think I smoked it, my dollar not some customer. In the end of all of this, the search for a glow @ crank has led me down a path of learning some things, usually how I learn best, unfortunatly.

Will log some stuff, I promise, but what I did get was went into 000 and looking @ the 10 (I call them pids) icons what ever, but noted when I went back to there from comencment of injection in output test, I could only view the 2nd block for less than I would guess a second, probably doing it wrong, but in block 2 timing, the lowest # was like 43, and the highest about 180, but certainly as we discussed nothing like 0/250. If I did it right this does not meet spec, but will do more testing later with logs, but this pump was certified back when I had other timing issues last year, and pump shop (SEATTLE INJECTOR) said they rarely fail.

And to validate to those viewing, you clarified the timing on the sensor of #3, yes a pizo and not a CKP sensor but doing the same IMO. I know some guys in other forums use a knock sensor to view the fire of injection in common rail, but that is a subject of another time.


The timing is now@ about 84, and will run it there unless you see that as an abnormal advance in response to ignition on poor fuel. I don't want to unduly stress and engine but does have more power than ever did before, but give me and opinion on if I should drop it back a little You stated don't glare too hard @ the graph, but using it for conversation the timing is just outside of the graph on the advanced side.

Will play some more with logs and get that data down hear, Jack thanks again, I may be old but I am slow.

Larimore.
 
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