2000 tdi beetle long cold start

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Larry Manton

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Jack, again more coctail dialog, I'm loving it. Going to look up wire diag also today and see what goes where as an overview of the ECT.

Larimore
 
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Simple test is , disconnect Coolant temp sensor and see if your GP working. You should have 12V at harness at least 7-10 Sec.
As far as glow plug light in cluster, you may have problem with Cluster.

Did you do output test with VCDS and see is it light comes on?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Simple test is , disconnect Coolant temp sensor and see if your GP working. You should have 12V at harness at least 7-10 Sec.
As far as glow plug light in cluster, you may have problem with Cluster.

Did you do output test with VCDS and see is it light comes on?


GP & MIL light are a OBD monitored device in engine ECU but ECU could be FOD..........and indeed in cluster.
http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...ong-cold-start&p=108068&viewfull=1#post108068

Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1C0-920-xx0.lbl
Part No: 1C0 920 901
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. M73 V07
Coding: 03202
Shop #: WSC 23345
VCID: 59B29754C31FC88EAD-4AE6

Subsystem 1 - Part No: Ident
Component: Nr. Wegfahrs.:VWZ5Z0Y6072070
Ident.-Nr. Wegfahrs.:VWZ5Z0Y6072070

No fault code found.

Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-012-AGR.clb
Part No: 038 906 012 CR
Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G400AG 2841
Coding: 00001
Shop #: WSC 00066
VCID: 62C0B0B8EE490B56FC-4AE6

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0
 
   #25  

Larry Manton

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GP & MIL light are a OBD monitored device in engine ECU but ECU could be FOD..........and indeed in cluster.
http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...ong-cold-start&p=108068&viewfull=1#post108068

JACK, getting the cart before the horse as will be a few days before I can delve into it doing specific test, and lets say for argument it is an ECU issue? Is a new ECU, plug and play? and if I buy one would probably be from you, what is the tab on that?

Larimore.
 
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Larry Manton

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To whom it may concern,

Going to get a chance to delve into this AM Friday when cold. Will be looking directly initially @ the ECT and continuity ect to the ECM and also VAG reading @ the time.

Will look @ continuity from ECT, and leads too J248 or what ever. page 26/4 bently, (a) T80/42 and T80/37 both go to J52 glow relay from J248. If all systems in place call for excitation of the relay, what should I see on both or either of these leads? 12V pulsed, steady or what ever. Is (a) power and (c) ground, have no idea.

And Jack, seeing how I have (a) and also (c)could we not say that I'm now working on a bifuricated issue, if you get my point. Now I'm busting your balls.

Larimore
 
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Larry Manton

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Okay, won some today.

Removed the ECT sensor, put a test light on one of the leads to the plugs, turned on the key and we have a light, moved it to the other lead and both are working. Car cranked about split second and started, 38F this morning.

So bought an ECT (not a parts changer, but okay in this case) as even I have 2 TDI's but the system works all the way through which is great. Now put in a new ECT and no light. So test new one against the old and identical ohmage. Remove a couple clips and get the wire harness up where I can test it. Keep in mind all of my electrical issues happened last year when I lost a radiator hose and flooded the top of the trans and various sensors. Now before I move on, there was quite a bit of old 12 coolant on the leads for the RPM and the G62, just apprising you of this as I know they can capilary a long way. Doing ohm test I did a lot of wiggle and no change.

So did an ohm test set @ 2K----G2 pin #1 Lilac, .425 Ohms so thinking it is reading a circuit in the temp light. Lead #2 which is the other side of G2 temp Br/white goes to ground #269 -1 inst panels and reads .001, so we have a great ground.

Lead # 4 on the G62 br/gn pin # 104 ohm out @ .001, so not seing driver on that end thinking this is right, just my opinion.

Lead # 3 I think has an issue. this is pin #121/112 BL/BN and has ohm of 1.160K. Leads pins 3 and 4 on ECT sensor when in water of 41F read 4.45 K, then add the 1.160.

Am I incorrect to want 0 Ohms on lead 121/112 Pin #3 on the J248??, do we have a driver issue on that pin or high resistance on the lead to it from pin #3 on the sensor.

In the shcematic there is no connectors between the G62 or G2 and the J248 so the resistance is in the lead or @ the J248. Could IMO cut lead a few inches from termination of each and and bypass and see what happens. Might have a comprimise up the harness on 3 and 4 or FOD, as Jack would say from coolant contamination.

Thanks for your time.

Larimore
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Larrymore that is the way the system is supposed to operate.

If you want to test get some resistors or a varsistor and cycle it up bridging the connection to simulate the ECT and watch the blocks in the ECU using VCDS.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack thanks, but let me digress.

I understand the resistance thing and some of the glow issue is now I see my fault, but won't take all the blame.

I maintain daily, 5- 4300 Internationals, 1 sprinter, 3 Dodge Cummins, Ford 7.3 and my 2 TDI, and here is what bit me. All of these units when moderatly cold will show a wait too start........meaning succintly there is a glow operation in progress, so this is what I am use too, meaning it is not that I don't know something, just what I knew was wrong in this case.

As I understand now the 1.160 reistance Pin #3 is by default probably (not sure) a built in resistance that from what I can glean make the system think it is some place below 9C. Yesterday when I tested with ECT plugged I just assumed (makes and ASS our of you and me) that I would get glow action. I'm standing there in insulated coveralls and can see my breath, any other diesel I have known would command glow with this, but maybe not here.

So I did plug the vag in this morning 46F and unplugged ECT the vag read 9C, which is IMO probably the resistance in that lead too the J248. Then putting the ECT plugged in and in Ice water 1.2C I have glow, then I do some more testing. I notice I have glow up until I get too about 10C, the have none. IN truth 48 to 50 F here when it is cold and damp (feels like 40) now I see may not command glow, but on a cold start up this little Turkey does not like it.

So Up side it is working, down side I would like too trick it to come on @ slightly higher temps but still chilly and damp. Did note glow time of about 2/3 seconds IMO, and read a thread that that can be adjusted. What I would like is too adjust the on command. IMO, this could be accomplished by an on and switch in the #3 lead tricking the system to think it is umplugged, but then probably would get a code. If I put any resistor in the wire it would then skew the temp reading @ all levels and jerk the injection and timing around.

Also have noted with the ECT umplugged it did code a circuit problem with the glow light itself, but it has never worked.

Also noted long caustic threads on the TDI glow issues, when now I see in fact may be nothing wrong with it but maybe the strategy needs adjusting.

Jack, again thanks for you time and expertise, much appreciated.

Larimore
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Easy..........

Run a wire to the Glow relay and trigger the poles manually or with a relay wired in parallel on the output legs to the " bifurcated " glow harness & with a timer or manual switch to trigger and control the relay.
Use a fuse too!

This way you can power the glows before the ignition is even cycled on & no DTC is initiated.

I still prefer you set the timing so it just lites off better.
 
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   #33  

Larry Manton

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Jack, thanks again and sounds like a plan.

Also will revisit the timing again but thought it spot on, but I have been right before, will look @ it again, have a nice day.

Larimore.
 
   #34  

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Larrymore........

Many don't realize it but the ALH can be manipulated for the cam off center lock point just slightly by using the taper fit to advance or retard the timing of the valves.

This genesis to fuel injection commencement & depending on the region and fuel "cetane" available......... can play a significant increase in starting cold quality or overall performance.

Have you considered blending your fuel in cold climates with a .5 to a gallon of gasoline and additional Kerosene to bring up the fuel cetane?

Did you know the ALH was originally designed to operate on 49-51 cetane ?

Here in the USA this causes all kinds of cold start issues since now low sulfur and a 40 cetane value..........

Just be sure to consider all variables in addition to timing or glow period.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, thanks again for the input.

Yes having several diesel classes am aware that the cetane rating in the U.S. for the most part SUCKS, no other way too put it.

Read where you mentioned the gas add before and might try it. All this said.......... after cleaning all contacts...........Ect, noted testing the system with a power probe I had inadvertantly blown # 29 Fuse (write stupid on my forehead) playing around with exciting the glow through the back of the Brown plug. One of those sinking feelings when you get a no commo error ECM, and no power to the Fuel solenoid. OH NOOO, I smoked the ECM, yeah have done worse, So, After all this, now the system majically works with no modification of manually activating the solenoid. Started this morning right off the bat, but was not that cold but cold enough to excite the glow.

Dinking with Cam timing? I own a Pico scope and do some compression wave form allowing you to view opening and closing of cam timing. A little harder on diesel but can come in through the glow plug but pressures are much higher. That stated and not going there how many degrees do you tweek the cam timing?, might visit that thought but for today I'll just watch it run and enjoy, but next week might visit the thought.

Was there enough corroison on the ECT plug ect, and by plugging and unplugging it made better contact, I don't know?, but works for me.

Will say this, with your help and spending about 2 hours with a magnifying glass and the wire DIAg, as there is 3 for the 1.9, I became fairly adept again @ reading it. Then with access the the back of the plugs in the left of dash (the brown one)I could get a better feel for it.

I would not even open the hood on a VW TDI with out a wire DIAG.

Jack, have a nice day, and thanks again for your time, with out it would have been a lot tougher.

Larimore.
 
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Dinking with Cam timing? I own a Pico scope and do some compression wave form allowing you to view opening and closing of cam timing. A little harder on diesel but can come in through the glow plug but pressures are much higher. That stated and not going there how many degrees do you tweek the cam timing?, might visit that thought but for today I'll just watch it run and enjoy, but next week might visit the thought.


Very little within a half a tooth of belt either way and not before manually turning the crank to be sure no damage will take place from FOD interference.
That taper pulley makes this golden to do and can be done under full belt tension.

Line the Cam belt up at TDC and lock bars.
Remove VC.
Loosen cam bolt and back out about 5 MM, then hit reverse side with brass drift to beak taper or use the gear pulley tool.
Some guys drill a small hole behind timing cover.

Now grab the cam with channel lock plier ( not on lobes ) and degree it in the direction you want.
Toward firewall to retard and toward front of car to advance.

This way you can experiment with this before messing with "commencement" of fuel & to see the difference experienced.

It is still my opinion that you consider setting up the commencement better and with accurate genesis and run a complete zero line on cam timing as the manual states.

Bifurcate this process.......... to become more proficient with cam belt slack offsets and pump timing.
 
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   #37  

Larry Manton

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Jack, will proceed from here as you advise, thanks again.


Larimore.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, have not done any timing changes, proceeded as thus.

Started hard starts again. Put it in the garage @ 40F and hooked 12 light again on glow system, which was working 2 days ago, (no way of actually knowing icon in dash broken) I do now get a glow malfunction code via dash light, is it possible this needs to work?? I know in our PVC welders here @ work if a dash light goes out the whole system is kaput. I doubt that here, but brought it up anyway.

Started thinking I might have a crank speed issue so this morning hooked up 12 light, along with DSO one channel on glow system tandem too light, and one channel on starter cable too battery. My thought monitor actual cranking speed, then compair to my other TDI and look @ it hard, maybe too slow this being a starter issue or Battery.

Interesting, turn the key to on, and no glow light, had one 2 days ago, so do the Jack test, remove ECT connector and now we have glow light meaning system passes the test as you stated, (more on that later).

So Crank the engine, and any thought about timing, fuel ect were totally dispelled @ that point. The engine cranked and started in 770 MS meaning 3/4 of a second and only one spike on the relative compression test via Amp clamp meaning this engine fired on the first jug it hit.

So puzzled, now replug in the ECT again and turn key to on, again no light. So frustrated crank it anyway, it cranks for about 4/5 seconds typical with out glow, then starts. Now the really interesting thing @ this point is the instant it is running the glow light comes on steady. To validate I shut it off and repeated, same scenario, no glow, then the moment the engines runs have a glow, is validated captured on screen along with visual of 12 volt light. Also noted after running the glow would stay on for about 1-2 minutes, did not look @ it real hard.

Noted there are only 2 information lines going to the J52, one pin #7 gn/ws goes to ECM (J248) 121/33 and the other pin #1 LI/WS J52 goes too ECM (J248) 121/42. I don't know VW strategy if when the ECT is unplugged it excites the one that is used after ignition and the other is just excited during crank, then vacated @ run. Obviously with ECT sensor unplugged it meets the self test and starts stellar, meaning instantly.

Searching for opinions here, goofy ECM,, intermitent connections, or is this possible a relflash issue that I am not aware of.

If I can't sort it out will excite this some way manually, just wondering now which one of the two is the glow before crank, as that is how I blew a fuse before playing with fire.

Larimore.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Larrymore........I bet timing is out when you think it's good.

This would indeed explain the start condition based on the information presented.

"Listen to me"........ The glow plug system is most likely not in error.

When car starts hard & due to short glow period & without a glow light is normal based on temp ECU strategy.

The reason it starts easier when manually igniting the glows, is you are heating the combustion chamber by doing so.

When timing is retarded and this excess fuel isn't burned due to being cold or lacking heat of compression, hence why the starter has to crank longer.

Basics.........

Now please post logs of timing cold and hot & with transition + commencement with VCDS.

0x01-04-000 ( while cranking during cold start issue and running )
0x01-08-000 ( while cranking during cold start issue and running )

0x01-03 > start commencement output test, then proceed immediately while also logging to 0x01-08-000 engine idling.
 
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Larry Manton

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Okay, let me get this right, into 04 and 08 while cranking, and log @ the same time, do I have that right? then right after start use 03 and start logging.

So, I could use the setting in Basics where all 3 are on the screen @ the same time?.. Only logged a couple times but will give it a whirl.



Now to be succinct. When we speak of timing is there other perameters that you are stating other than the dynamic graphing for the TDI only, I can think of no other, maybe wrong. When viewing data (not sure which PiD) they state timing specified, and actual, they are almost the same. I suppose the timing of the Cam could be adv/retard and the comencment of injection would have no clue, but how would I look @ that on VAG, would think that would be a trial and error. I could view that with a compression wave form but not on VAG.

Thanks again

Larimore.
 
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