2000 tdi beetle long cold start

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Larry Manton

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Jack, have been here before but but now the weather is getting colder on the ALH beetle. Don't seem to have air in fuel line to pump, (clear) and question glow plugs running and as there is no light in the dash, and never has been. Car will start but after about 5 second crank. Tweaked the pump timing a hair before and improved but not definitive. We spoke of some air in the lines ect, might still be the issue but wanted to do the logging thing as I need the experience and might give some clues, I'm not talking about the scan, everything shows good there but can do it again if you like.:banghead:

The last time we spoke and I got distracted (my fault) you stated doing a log and see what comes up. You did post the procedure and as usual I dropped the ball. :banghead:

My thought is on this too do it from a cold start, and questioning the hows and such. I'm not talking about looking @ blocks but the over time view too see who is playing and such is about the only way I can discribe it. Other than doing an amp probe on Glow circuit I don't see how I know as the key has too be on for Vag to view, so this does not allow me to look at plugs during cold initial start, (am I wrong here) if you get my drift.

Jack, I know it is hard to soar with Eagles, just another Turkey disrupting you day.:thanks:

Thanks LARIMORE.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Jack, have been here before but but now the weather is getting colder on the ALH beetle. Don't seem to have air in fuel line to pump, (clear) and question glow plugs running and as there is no light in the dash, and never has been. Car will start but after about 5 second crank. Tweaked the pump timing a hair before and improved but not definitive. We spoke of some air in the lines ect, might still be the issue but wanted to do the logging thing as I need the experience and might give some clues, I'm not talking about the scan, everything shows good there but can do it again if you like.:banghead:

The last time we spoke and I got distracted (my fault) you stated doing a log and see what comes up. You did post the procedure and as usual I dropped the ball. :banghead:

My thought is on this too do it from a cold start, and questioning the hows and such. I'm not talking about looking @ blocks but the over time view too see who is playing and such is about the only way I can discribe it. Other than doing an amp probe on Glow circuit I don't see how I know as the key has too be on for Vag to view, so this does not allow me to look at plugs during cold initial start, (am I wrong here) if you get my drift.

Jack, I know it is hard to soar with Eagles, just another Turkey disrupting you day.:thanks:

Thanks LARIMORE.
Well 2000 Beetle has the compare 2 to 2 strategy and is wired that way.

The best way to know when the glows are being called on, is to run an LED light to indicate they are ON & on dash board so you can see when the relay sticks ON.
In the later glows this is a serious problem because it wipes all glows after a glitch that permits 12V longer than the ramp up period and it's over!

Your car uses standard glows and doesn't step voltage down like the late cars, another reason I really like the ALH.
Using VCDS is a waste of time to see the amperage draw of glows & because the harness is made so shitty in that ALH at the glows themselves. I recommended changing the wire harness with a bifurcated circuit back to relay.

Commencement should be checked with VCDS cold and logged immediately after being started to determine that commencement is correct cold.

After engine started cold immediately!

Then just log the warm up transition in 0x01-04-000 cold to see the baseline.

0x01-03 start first test then go to 0x01-08-000 and log the data for first 20 seconds and post it.
 
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Jef

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Fresh thread, fresh Auto-Scan please.

Combustion happens due to heat. Heat is generated by the rate at which air is compressed. A "weak" battery will result in a slower spinning starter, thus slower crank speed, thus less heat per compression, thus longer crank times. While the battery may "test" out just fine, to see if this could be a battery issue, jump start the car when it is dead cold. Does that help? If so, replace battery. Of course make sure your battery cables are in good condition, no voltage drop issues.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Fresh thread, fresh Auto-Scan please.

Combustion happens due to heat. Heat is generated by the rate at which air is compressed. A "weak" battery will result in a slower spinning starter, thus slower crank speed, thus less heat per compression, thus longer crank times. While the battery may "test" out just fine, to see if this could be a battery issue, jump start the car when it is dead cold. Does that help? If so, replace battery. Of course make sure your battery cables are in good condition, no voltage drop issues.

Personally.......... I like turn of the key starts & at the slowest speed possible to do it, further it shows an engines heath and settings.
 
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bifurcated circuit, Jack, thanks for the response and will look into this, although bifurcated is a new word too me, Hope it is actually PC, well actually I don't care but will research.

Yeah will check with an amp probe and also light too varify that circuit is excited looking @ amps and volts, but think last time I tested the plugs they were funtioning but will research again.


Jef, understand crank speed and ignition and on Cummins the injectors will not fire below certain point, but you bring up a good point, yes maybe crank speed is a bit slow, will look @ that also a valid point.

Thanks again for your time.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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bifurcated circuit, Jack, thanks for the response and will look into this, although bifurcated is a new word too me, Hope it is actually PC, well actually I don't care but will research.

Yeah will check with an amp probe and also light too varify that circuit is excited looking @ amps and volts, but think last time I tested the plugs they were funtioning but will research again.



NP...................... :rolleyes:

bi·fur·cate
verb
past tense: bifurcated; past participle: bifurcated
ˈbīfərˌkāt/

  • divide into two branches or forks.
    "just below Cairo the river bifurcates"
 
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Larry Manton

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To divide into two parts or branches. Okay Jack I looked it up but you beat me too it. I guess I might be bifuricating, and will now use it @ cocktail partys just to elevate myself.

LARIMORE.
 
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ivagp

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Hi Larry are you socially awkward or do you not know the concept of a forum
 
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Larry Manton

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IVAGP, if I offended you or anybody my apology. Socially awkward, I miight be?, just that Jack it would appear is someone whom enjoys humor, and in my case it is always selfdepricating and not directed at anybody else but me. Maybe I have mistook that here, but doubt it.

That said will get a scan but in the past Glow system was never stated a problem in previous scans (will post one later, could be wrong) as a problem, will run it this weekend for input for forum did not have time @ 330 AM heading for work.

Went out this morning and connected test light to the circuit, one test between glow harness and #1 plug. System did not excite with the KOEO. Tested that glow through 12 volts light and that glow is indeed alive so circuit is not excited. Went over to the two connectors leading too the glow Harness, no excitation @ that point either so now will head up stream after viewing the Bently looking for relay or lack of stimulus from the DICM.

That stated the (two wires) connection too the glow harness look too not be factory and a good looking crimps. (Possibly bifuricated, can I say that?) there are two crimped and might be the previous owner actually installed this, but I am not aware, will look @ the harness on my Jetta, should be the same.


LARIMORE
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, or too all! Looking @ manual there is some discrepioncy here, and thought Jack once noted and addressed as Jokeswagen. I see a relay J52 (180) but can find no actual location of which relay # it is?, probably a me issue.

Then note Glow module in plastic box near plenum ( is not noted or described in wire diag) looking for some clarification here in my ignorant state, any input appreciated.

Larimore.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Joking around is fine by me...........and that is just IVAGP's way of him joking and busting your balls I think Larrymore.
I believe I am often taken way out of context by the person that wants to be PC but give me a break.

PC = Sucks!
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, thanks again for the info on the relay, puts me on the right track, and I always need it.

As far as my interpretation of the PC thing, yeah, maybe I got it wrong, maybe not.

As a side note being a combat Vet, I guess my skin right now a little thin in reference to the whold NFL thing, well yes..............not part of the forum, but I need some joking to make it through the day.

Larimore
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Jack, thanks again for the info on the relay, puts me on the right track, and I always need it.

As far as my interpretation of the PC thing, yeah, maybe I got it wrong, maybe not.

As a side note being a combat Vet, I guess my skin right now a little thin in reference to the whold NFL thing, well yes..............not part of the forum, but I need some joking to make it through the day.

Larimore

Larrymore,


Thank you for your service as a combat Vet......it is appreciated!
I don't watch football anyway, so I just ignore it.

Seems to me that NFL would lose a lot of fans & in that conservative belt, when it hurts enough "money wise", I am sure people will be fired as a justifiable contract breach.
If it brings in money than maybe find a new sport to align with, if it bothers you.

People have a right to say pretty much whatever they want & that is a good thing, but you nor I are required to listen to it either.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, actually I watch little football, just pick if up vicariously through the media pretty hard too miss it.

Totally agree, these folk have the right to vent their feelings, I concurr, they picked the wrong Forum in which too do it. I think they have made foes of folk that once liked them.

Okay,

Posting scan of beetle, like I thought same old gremlins mirrors and door locks again Turkey me. Bought cheap door lock, works but codes, my bad. Mirrors I fixed as per Jack (thanks) broken wire in door lomb and there is 12 volts running to both mirrors and just never found a good IMO vendor to buy the mirror face which I suspect is bad. Have not excited them on the bench too see if they produce a heat signature.

Noted the 180 relay is mounted (appears to me) on a bracket that has 2 faces which the relays are mounted. Would like to drop it down and prob the back side of relay too see if it is being excited by the DCIM or not.

I removed the relay and kind of in the dark here. This is not the classic Bosch relay. I get the 30 and 31 but no matter where I touch cannot seem too excite it on the bench as I am a big fan of that. Large leg 30, the next 2 smaller ones obviously (I think) going to each leg,(BIFURICATED) Could swap with the 99 Jetta but will probably buy one anyway as it has 16 years on it. Posting the face of it for info if some available for testing on the bench.

Code:
Wednesday,27,September,2017,17:38:22:01722
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
VCDS Version: 17.8.0.1 (x64)
Data version: 20170721 DS276.2
[url]www.Ross-Tech.com[/url]


Mileage: 205880km-127927mi   Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 9C - VW New Beetle (1999 > 2010)
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 17 19 25 29 35 37 39 46 54 56 65 75
 
   Mileage: 205880km-127927miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 038-906-012-AGR.clb
   Part No: 038 906 012 CR
   Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G400AG  2841  
   Coding: 00001
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 62C0B0B8EE490B56FC-4AE6

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 01M-927-733.lbl
   Part No: 01M 927 733 KA
   Component: AG4 Getriebe 01M    4836  
   Coding: 00011
   Shop #: WSC 00000  
   VCID: 79F2F7D463DFE88ECD-095A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ABS.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 907 379 J
   Component: ABS FRONT MK60      0103  
   Coding: 0004097
   Shop #: WSC 23328 328 00076
   VCID: 31620FF4AB2FE0CE35-5102

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
   Part No: 6Q0 909 605 A
   Component: 25 AIRBAG VW5  0E   0006  
   Coding: 12853
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 356A3BE40F47CCEE69-4AE6

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 1C0-920-xx0.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 920 901 
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. M73 V07  
   Coding: 03202
   Shop #: WSC 23345  
   VCID: 59B29754C31FC88EAD-4AE6

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: Ident
   Component: Nr. Wegfahrs.:VWZ5Z0Y6072070  
   Ident.-Nr. Wegfahrs.:VWZ5Z0Y6072070

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
   Part No: 6N0 909 901 
   Component: Gateway K<->CAN    V072  
   Coding: 00007
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 70E4CAF030A5A9C67A-4ACE

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 1J0-959-799.lbl
   Part No: 1J0 959 799 AR
   Component: 7S Zentral-SG Komf. 0001  
   Coding: 00256
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 0E18B4084A51DF3608-4AE6

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1J2959802C
   Component: 7S Tõrsteuerger. FS0002F  

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1J2959801D
   Component: 7S Tõrsteuerger. BF0002r  

4 Faults Found:
00953 - Interior Light Time limit 
            25-10 - Unknown Switch Condition - Intermittent
00928 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Front Driver Side (F220) 
            54-00 - Incorrectly Equipped
00943 - Heated Exterior Mirror; Driver Side (Z4) 
            35-00 -  - 
00944 - Heated Exterior Mirror; Passenger Side (Z5) 
            35-00 -  - 

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 03:51)--------------------------
Code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 01: Engine  (038 906 012 CR)

17:46:29 Group 013: I.Q. Idle Stabilization (Injection Quantity Deviation)
  0.47 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 1 
  -0.61 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 2 
  0.12 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 3 
  0.00 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 4 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 01: Engine  (038 906 012 CR)

17:46:30 Group 013: I.Q. Idle Stabilization (Injection Quantity Deviation)
  0.47 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 1 
  -0.61 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 2 
  0.12 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 3 
  0.00 mg/str  IQ Cylinder 4 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also 3 fuses 32, 43 and # 2 in the battery box which are involved in the relay are all in working order. MIght not be transmitting up to the relay, to be tested later tomorrow.

Tried to post a picture of relay face but have not got the hang of image transferal on this thread, cannot seem to just copy and paste.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, if it all turns too crap which I don't see. Am not opposed too bypassing systems and exciting plugs for a few seconds @ start up with a spring return switch. You infered and I have in the past tested a Glow plug on an 04 and watch it grenade in about 3 seconds, not a nice feeling, like just boned myself.

That said you illuded to the fact the ALH can withstand direct 12 volts, or did I mistake what you meant?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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ALH glow plugs can indeed take 12 volts direct.

Fixing the stock system is the easiest path if in error and so no DTC's will be created in controller.

The system is simple and I believe you can do this.

Now the only time I would install a manual timer & secondary relay would be on a keep alive cold weather area or farm type equipment in conjunction with OEM & only as an emergency bypass.

The first thing you want to do is verify you have voltage at each glow and a sufficient ground.

Have you added a redundant ground strap to the head from battery?
 
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Larry Manton

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No, have not added a ground strap but sure can.

Right now need to valigate relay is good, or that it is being excited by the DCIM, then move from there.

Yes, I don't like altering systems just some times works better but ugly. I know they do some reroutes in the battery area concerning the AC fuses and such, that is where my thinking was. But no, don't like to haywire, but sometimes is what it is.

Will delve into this tomorrow but my gut feel is at this time is the relay is shot, JMO. Thanks for your time. Managed to log some data yesterday, a new experience for me, will play with it some more.

Larimore
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, put in a new J52 (180) relay no glow. Normally I am not a parts changer, but did here as it has 16 years on it, not a customer, my dime.

That stated KOEO, glow relay does not excite. My move @ this time before tearing stuff appart is pull the pleunum cover and back probe t80/42 an correponding lead t80/37 both from the J248 to the relay and see if the DFI is even commanding it on. Don't know if one is power, the other ground, maybe something diff, and two diff processes.

That stated I know the car thinks it is cold as the blue light from the dash is on, no I have not validated this on Vag, could be wrong. The DFI should command glow cold so that is my next move.

Now. I have issues with the system as glows have never coded and we know they don't function, and even with the glows harness pulled it does not code a failure, even a Turkey knows this is wrong. The fact I have no glow light in the dash, and have never, might be some of the issue but the wire diag does not illude to that, JMO.

If in fact I find the J248 is not commanding the glow, is this a failue of the 248?, and then would I be best to excite those 2 lines manually, or just replace the 248, and if so does this require some form of reflash, or just ship it too this Jack guys, and now a plug and play.

Larimore
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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STOP!

Pull ECT and see if the glows are called upon to be energized as per the RTFB.

Just because the cluster sees cold, doesn't mean the ECU does.

The ECT sensor is 4 pins .......2 for cluster and 2 for ECU & they can fail on one leg.

Are there any faults when unplugging the ECT?
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, good stuff will comply.

Cluster and ECU, not the same, did not know that?, again good stuff. As once stated, not that I don't know something, just maybe what I know is wrong, the TURKEY mode again, but I meant well.

Don't know on faults when unplugging the ECT, but will sure find out, again, thanks for your time and input.

Larimore.
 
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