EV Thread

   #341  

Uwe

Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
34,566
Reaction score
24,617
Location
USA
VCDS Serial number
HC100001
But only because it's sold at a premium price?
Yep. That's why the originally promised $35k base model still vaporware.

For EVs to become mainstream they need to be profitable in all market segments and all price points - given the slim margins on Compacts and sub-Compacts that's going to need some radical thinking.
I figure the catch is the cost of the batteries. They're the equivalent of the fuel tank on a conventional car. What does it cost to manufacture a fuel tank? $100? Less? How much does it cost to manufacture a battery pack that gives a EV an acceptable range, say 300 miles? $10,000? More?
 
   #342  

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,855
Reaction score
4,355
Location
Sector 7G
VCDS Serial number
HC424490
Base A3 sedan has a 186hp gasser and FWD, starts at $31,950. Base A3 e-tron has 150hp gasser and 109hp electric motor, starts at $39,500 or a difference of $7,550. I'm guessing Audi makes far less profit off the 2nd one. :)
 
   #343  

Uwe

Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
34,566
Reaction score
24,617
Location
USA
VCDS Serial number
HC100001
Base A3 sedan has a 186hp gasser and FWD, starts at $31,950. Base A3 e-tron has 150hp gasser and 109hp electric motor, starts at $39,500 or a difference of $7,550. I'm guessing Audi makes far less profit off the 2nd one. :)
Yeah, a hybrid is intrinsically more expensive due to having both and engine and an electric motor, plus a battery. What keeps it reasonable is the relatively small size of the battery.
 
   #344  

msjulie

Verified VCDS User
Verified
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
66
Reaction score
54
Location
USA
VCDS Serial number
C?ID=1672
I may not be a spring chicken but I know enough to know that a lot of the arguments about EVs being too costly for everything has been the same trend in all tech. Happened with motorcars, televisions, etc. Things take time friends :) I don't expect to convert anyone to the notion of EVs, change is hard but some change is worth it in the end.
 
   #345  

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,855
Reaction score
4,355
Location
Sector 7G
VCDS Serial number
HC424490
Hybrids have been out for a while now and older Prius and Insight seem to have batteries that have held up decently well, with rebuilding companies offering fairly inexpensive fixes for when the batteries do finally reach the end of their usable life like this:


https://www.electronautomotive.com/product/toyota-prius-2010-2015-battery-rebuild-kit

$1k to get the hybrid hybriding again.

High mileage Teslas seem to retain a huge portion of their usable battery, likely far better than most cell phones from the 2012 or so era. Tesla is a bit of a unique situation since they seem to go out of their way to replace batteries, motors, electronics under warranty so some of those high mile cars might be on non-original batteries.
 
   #346  

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,855
Reaction score
4,355
Location
Sector 7G
VCDS Serial number
HC424490
 
   #349  

dieseldub

Verified VCDS User
Verified
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
119
Reaction score
158
Location
Bay Area, CA
VCDS Serial number
C?ID=28764
Here's a twist on this discussion. I attended the Indy 500 this year, and my buddy who lives in Speedway and offered his usual "Hoosier hospitality," he's a big racing nerd and very encyclopedic about all things racing. He's also an engineer, although more for construction by trade than he is in the automotive world. Nevertheless, he has his finger on the pulse of things in that realm reasonably well.

He suggested that the Indy 500, being that it once was intended to be a pinnacle of motorsport where manufacturers can bring different technologies, develop them on the racetrack to later implement them and improve their road cars, that maybe they should make all the race cars battery electric.

I fully understood where he was coming from, but the challenges therein are, well, tricky.

Take Formula E, for example. Their first generation of cars required them to get into a second vehicle mid race. And the races only last about 50 minutes! And the cars have less than 300 hp.

An IndyCar makes in excess of 700 hp to achieve average lap speeds around the grand old Speedway in excess of 220 mph.

A Tesla Model S P100D is likely not far off in terms of outright power, but it also weighs in excess of 4000 lbs with its batteries. The ethanol burning open wheelers? Sub 1500 lbs... Granted, if you were to construct it more like a Formula E car you could get it a lot lower. Formula E cars weigh something like 1800 lbs WITH driver. Most drivers are fairly small guys and probably weigh 160 lbs or less. So, for the sake of argument, say an F-E car on average weighs 1650 lbs. They use a 28KWh battery... Granted, next year's cars will have a bigger battery pack that is supposed to allow them to go the race distance without swapping vehicles.

But just let that math sink in for a moment. The cars still weigh more and have far less power, go shorter distances in between needing to replenish its fuel source.

Simply put, liquid fuel BY WEIGHT, is far more energy dense than any battery technology we currently have.

Electric motors can be made much more powerful than the 270 hp F-E cars currently utilize, but then how fast would it deplete its battery? How big would you make the battery so it can go a reasonable distance?

The real answer seems to be in F1 and Le Mans prototypes of the last several years. High tech, direct injected turbocharged engines with high output hybrid systems that are fairly light weight. You want to cover distance while going fast? You're going to need liquid fuel to do it. But certainly recapturing some of the energy that would have otherwise been lost with braking as well as the turbo is a smart thing to do. Don't even need much battery for that, just capacitors. Doesn't need to retain the electricity for long. Turbochargers that double as an electric motor AND a generator. It can be a huge turbo for max power, but to eliminate lag, flip the motor-generator unit to motor mode so it helps spin the turbo up faster, then when the engine is pumping sufficient exhaust volume to takeover driving the turbo, flip it back to being a generator to help regulate boost and generate electricity at the same time. How brilliant is that?

Even more brilliant? The Le Mans prototypes allow the electric power to be put to the front wheels. Put the big internal combustion power to the rear, and the lower output from the electric motors to the front wheels and you now have a high-tech AWD race car that can scoot out of the corners unlike anything you've ever witnessed and they're doing it with less fuel than ever thanks to the hybrid system and fancy turbo-DI technology.

Porsche decided to take its Le Mans racer and build it as if they didn't have the strict ACO rules to adhere to and they--just to say they can--have been going out and breaking track records. First at Spa. Then the Nordschliefe and most recently they were at Laguna Seca during Rennsport Reunion with the car, though they didn't appear to actually be trying hard for the record there, they still weren't far off it.

Battery electric may be able to suit 95% of most people's daily driving needs, but the handful that do more long distance frequently, something at least with internal combustion assistance will be necessary. And if you're trying to cover long distances very quickly, it will be a long time before we see 100% battery electric able to dethrone anything internal combustion for that. But, that's where a well thought out plug in hybrid comes in handy, where it can be on 100% electric power for most of your daily uses, and when you need to go longer, you have the seamless integration of an internal combustion engine to keep you going. And, that plug in hybrid can also be an insane performance car, as Ferrari, Porsche and McLaren have illustrated.

I'm not sold on 100% battery electric, but what I do see developing in front of us now with performance hybrids is very, very exciting indeed. And unless we get some miracle breakthrough in battery technology and charging times, I don't see how we could ever have battery electrics fully displace internal combustion in racing where the name of the game is covering as many miles in as short a time as possible.

500 mile races have been completed in under 2.5 hours.

And according to Wikipedia, the most distance covered at the 24 Hours of Le Mans is about 3362 miles. And that was done with a diesel powered Audi in 2010 (R15+ with a 4V/cyl, 5.5L V10 commonrail).

The bar has been set quite high, and I don't see a pure battery electric coming close to either record anytime soon. Not when an IndyCar can go nearly 100 miles at full tilt between fill ups and only need ~6 seconds to fill back up to do it again.

What's the racing have to do with the road? I suppose not much other than to point out if you want to cover large distances in short time, you're going to want a liquid fueled vehicle. Whether or not it has electric assistance is upto you! But such a configuration (PHEV) DOES make a lot of sense for those who do both short commutes and occasional long drives.
 
   #350  

PetrolDave

Verified VCDS User
Verified
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
4,861
Reaction score
4,861
Location
Trowbridge, UK
VCDS Serial number
C?ID=1423
What's the racing have to do with the road? I suppose not much other than to point out if you want to cover large distances in short time, you're going to want a liquid fueled vehicle. Whether or not it has electric assistance is upto you! But such a configuration (PHEV) DOES make a lot of sense for those who do both short commutes and occasional long drives.
Exactly what I've been saying on several forums, but the EV "evangelists" are so intent that EVs suit everyone (maybe because they live in or near cities, and/or haven't considered the impact on the electricity grid of EVERY car being an EV?) that I normally get shot down :facepalm:
 
   #351  

Uwe

Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
34,566
Reaction score
24,617
Location
USA
VCDS Serial number
HC100001
Exactly what I've been saying on several forums, but the EV "evangelists" are so intent that EVs suit everyone (maybe because they live in or near cities, and/or haven't considered the impact on the electricity grid of EVERY car being an EV?) that I normally get shot down :facepalm:
I suspect that if most EV charging happens late at night, when there's currently plenty of of spare capacity on the grid, that this won't be a big problem.

The question is for how long there will be spare capacity on the grid at night, given the changes to the generating sources these same "evangelists" want to make. Hint: The sun doesn't shine at all at night, and wind speeds are usually lower, and daytime is when people want to use their cars, meaning they don't have time to charge 'em them.
 
   #353  

D-Dub

Verified VCDS User
Verified
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
620
Reaction score
630
Location
US 2014 GTI Drivers Edition/DSG
VCDS Serial number
C?ID=272151
@dieseldub

I think I can agree wholeheartedly.

I think 100% EV (or perhaps with an extremely small 'range extender' backup engine) should not necessarily be battery powered, but either capacitor powered, and/or fuel cell powered.

I hope that no one can disagree (with a straight face) that currently gas fuel provides one of the most efficient storage methods of providing motive power.

And unless/until batteries and/or capacitors can equal or exceed fuel's power to weight, and power to wait (pun intended) ratios, that fuel is incredibly hard to beat.

In fact, I had hoped that fuel cell technology and infrastructure would start expanding faster than it has, since it is a closer analog to plain old gasoline.

I would love to see a hybrid fuel cell/plug-in/battery, and if necessary with gas-powered range extender EV hit the mainstream, but unfortunately I don't see that happening until another version of Tesla comes out and builds not only the vehicles but the infrastructure to support them.

yes I realize that is a lot of technology and complexity to pack in and try to keep affordable, but I believe it will have to be done as hybrids before the world can be completely weaned off of gasoline.

While the automobile manufacturers are starting to come around to hybrids/EV's, there is still the entrenched oil companies that will continue to try to fight to survive as long as possible.

If I owned quick trip or some other national gas chain, I would already be allocating EV charging spots and preparing for hydrogen fuel cells (or whatever ends becoming the standard).

Heck, even a 100% EV with a liquid propane backup generator/range extender would be interesting.

And I bet even Hank Hill would approve of that.
 
   #354  

Uwe

Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
34,566
Reaction score
24,617
Location
USA
VCDS Serial number
HC100001
I hope that no one can disagree (with a straight face) that currently gas diesel fuel provides one of the most efficient storage methods of providing motive power.
Fixed that for you. ;)

If I owned quick trip or some other national gas chain, I would already be allocating EV charging spots and preparing for hydrogen fuel cells (or whatever ends becoming the standard).
So like this Sheetz along I81 in rural VA? (It also happens to have the best diesel prices around).

zILQLp8.jpg
 
   #356  

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,855
Reaction score
4,355
Location
Sector 7G
VCDS Serial number
HC424490
Tangentially related to transportation relying on a single source of energy, I just watched this last night:


It really makes you think about energy independence both nationally and locally. I'm in no way as prepared for SHTF as some people I know but I like having choices. I can fill up my e-tron from the grid and from a gas station. I can heat my house using heating oil (interchangeable with diesel other than taxes), or with an electric heat pump in my A/C system, or from a woodburning insert for my fireplace. I can power my house from the electrical grid or from a gasoline generator. Tying yourself exclusively to one single source for energy of any type seems foolish when other alternatives exist. My $0.02.
 
   #357  

Uwe

Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
34,566
Reaction score
24,617
Location
USA
VCDS Serial number
HC100001
Nice, but are those tesla usable only, or does it work with the e-tron and other standard J1772 vehicles?
I'm pretty sure they're Tesla-only.
 
   #359  

dieseldub

Verified VCDS User
Verified
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
119
Reaction score
158
Location
Bay Area, CA
VCDS Serial number
C?ID=28764
And unless/until batteries and/or capacitors can equal or exceed fuel's power to weight, and power to wait (pun intended) ratios, that fuel is incredibly hard to beat.

Hah, I'm totally going to use that some day.

Pretty much summed up my long ass post right there.

For the racing world, I don't see battery electric coming close to truly displacing what liquid fuels offer as far as combination of range, power and quick refill time, especially for endurance racing.

I do applaud the efforts to implement clever hybrid tech into race cars as performance enhancers and to recapture some energy that would have otherwise just been lost to heat and noise and find a way to aid forward motion even further. It's also a great way for automakers to sink money into better developing the tech in the harshest environment possible and coming up with new, creative solutions thanks to it.

Unfortunately for my Indianapolis friend, the flat out nature of his local speedway doesn't lend itself well to electric or electric power much since there's such minimal brake usage. I suppose with the fancy MGU turbos F1 and Le Mans uses they might get a little something out of it, but for near 100% wide open throttle for green flag laps for huge stretches of time, why bother with the minimal assistance batteries can have there when that space and weight could be used for the much more energy dense liquid fuel?

For road racing, it makes a fair bit more sense. And road racing is a better representation of what happens in every day driving. Lots of braking, accelerating and cornering!

Meanwhile in NASCAR... Yeehaws finally got some form of fuel injection! Throttle body... Welcome to the 1980s, boys!
 
   #360  

D-Dub

Verified VCDS User
Verified
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
620
Reaction score
630
Location
US 2014 GTI Drivers Edition/DSG
VCDS Serial number
C?ID=272151
What 100% EV vehicles need, is Tony Stark's Arc Reactor.

What comes before that, will simply be progress.
 
Top