EV Thread

   #182  

D-Dub

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yes, used ev's are generally undervalued at the perceived or potential loss of battery. Not sure that they (EV's in general) have been in service quite long enough to have a well established/known rate of failure, yet.

however I posit that many/most are made up of essentially standardized (at least for a particular manufacturer) cells that are grouped together.

as battery advances are made, it will become cheaper and easier to replace failing cells or entire packs as needed.

In the mean time, the lower cost of used EV's will increasingly spur the less EV inclined to consider and EV/hybrid over traditional ICE only.

I can only speak for myself, I was not actively looking at EV's or hybrids to replace my GTI, however a nearby dealership always had a constant supply of lease return chevy volts that I would drive by several times a week.

I have always been in intrigued by Tesla's, but realize I will probably never afford one. Curiosity got the best of me one afternoon, and I was impressed enough to do a little more research and few more test drives that I ended up with a loaded 3 year old volt, under 30k miles, with a 6? year/120k mile full extended warranty for under 15k.

By no means is the volt perfect, but I really like it. And as you can probably understand I have become quite the EV convert (obviously mine is not a pure EV, but EV with gas range extender).

Since then, the gen2 volt and bolt (and others) have improved and expanded on the available ev platforms.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that EV is the only solution for everyone and everything, right here right now.

But I dare anyone to take the pepsi challenge, so to speak, if you have an opportunity to drive an EV or PHEV (of any make/model), I think most people will walk away more impressed than not. Even if the particular vehicle that is driven doesn't fit their particular needs or situation.
 
   #184  

Uwe

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But I dare anyone to take the pepsi challenge, so to speak, if you have an opportunity to drive an EV or PHEV (of any make/model), I think most people will walk away more impressed than not. Even if the particular vehicle that is driven doesn't fit their particular needs or situation.
I have to admit, I am pretty impressed with the A3 e-tron that we added to the RT fleet late last year. For commuting duty, it's electric, but there's never any range anxiety, or need to plan a trip around charging locations, or the insufferable delays associated with charging during a long trip.

The drawback is the complexity of the systems in it. I wouldn't wanna own it when it's 8 years old with 100,000 miles on it and the warranty has expired.

-Uwe-
 
   #185  

PetrolDave

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The drawback is the complexity of the systems in it. I wouldn't wanna own it when it's 8 years old with 100,000 miles on it and the warranty has expired.
And it's that anxiety, rather than range anxiety, that will keep used EV prices in the crapper.

We've got 100+ years accumulated(!) knowledge of batteries to know that their life is unpredictable (given they are chemical factories in an uncontrolled environment in a car that's no great surprise) and their replacement can be a distress purchase so it will take a hell of a lot of good experience to overcome that large knowledge base.
 
   #186  

vreihen

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The drawback is the complexity of the systems in it. I wouldn't wanna own it when it's 8 years old with 100,000 miles on it and the warranty has expired.
Who keeps a cell phone or other piece of consumer electronics that long? People will be lining up around the block to buy a new Apple Car 8+, with the same four wheels but a shiny new font on the dashboard and powered by the new M9 motor. It will be the thinnest iCar yet..... :p
 
   #187  

Jack@European_Parts

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Who keeps a cell phone or other piece of consumer electronics that long? People will be lining up around the block to buy a new Apple Car 8+, with the same four wheels but a shiny new font on the dashboard and powered by the new M9 motor. It will be the thinnest iCar yet..... :p
hyper consumerism..........
 
   #188  

Uwe

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We've got 100+ years accumulated(!) knowledge of batteries to know that their life is unpredictable (given they are chemical factories in an uncontrolled environment in a car that's no great surprise) and their replacement can be a distress purchase so it will take a hell of a lot of good experience to overcome that large knowledge base.
Yep. The original Tesla Roadster and the 1st-gen Nissan Leaf used air-cooled batteries. Ask anyone who lives in a hot climate what that did to battery life. Newer PHEVs and BEVs tend to use dedicated coolant loops tied into the car's AC system to keep the batteries cool under load. That's part of the complexity I was talking about.
 
   #189  

D-Dub

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I have to admit, I am pretty impressed with the A3 e-tron that we added to the RT fleet late last year. For commuting duty, it's electric, but there's never any range anxiety, or need to plan a trip around charging locations, or the insufferable delays associated with charging during a long trip.
exactly.

The drawback is the complexity of the systems in it. I wouldn't wanna own it when it's 8 years old with 100,000 miles on it and the warranty has expired.

-Uwe-
True, but really, how much more complex than a normal ICE is it... ICE also have large amounts of electronics, an increasing number of batteries, and electric motors.

It is just a matter of reorganization and size of existing ICE components, in simple terms. Obviously the details and specific components are different, but typically only in size and implementation.

An EV drive motor operates on the same electrical principles as we have worked with from the beginning of electric motors (which is some 50 years before ICE motors).

I plan to run my volt until the wheels fall off.

If/when the battery starts failing, I expect replacement packs will have fallen into affordability, or I can still get around on ICE.

Or maybe turn it into a race car. :)


interesting (2016) article on the various battery packs @ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/06/a-tale-of-3-battery-packs/
 
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   #190  

Uwe

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True, but really, how much more complex than a normal ICE is it...
Plenty more complicated. It has all the stuff that a normal ICE-engined car does plus all the stuff that a pure BEV has. So it's the worst of both worlds when it comes to complexity and shit that will eventually fail/break.

Given the way I use vehicles, I would rather have a pure BEV for local use and a straight ICE for the long trips.
 
   #192  

Jack@European_Parts

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Let's ask some questions here.

Don't Lithium Ion batteries contain & emit way more harmful toxic gasses during potential explosion/fires, charging, discharge conditions, & being manufactured and reclaimed & which would far exceed a useful life of the carbon foot print of gas or diesel cars, then factoring in where the power comes from or refinement process of the battery?

If the FAA is trying to ban all lithium Ion batteries due to safety why isn't there a parallel here?

This was reported as a fake news item but I think I have to disagree with some of it after observing or smelling LEAD ACID batteries verse Lithium Ion melting down just for the Bosch drill I have. The fumes were downright unbearable in comparison and such a tiny battery in comparison to an entire floor board where a convertible leaks water!

Pardon my French Eric but FUCK THAT!

Bunk in the Trunk huh?

https://www.popularmechanics.com/ca...7039/tesla-battery-emissions-study-fake-news/

So what happens when Lithium Ion meets water?

Let's see....... :p

 
   #193  

Uwe

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^^^ That's metallic lithium. There's no metallic lithium in a Li-ion battery. Yes, yes, Li-ion batteries can catch fire if abused. So can gasoline or diesel.
 
   #194  

Jack@European_Parts

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^^^ That's metallic lithium. There's no metallic lithium in a Li-ion battery. Yes, yes, Li-ion batteries can catch fire if abused. So can gasoline or diesel.
Yeah maybe not metallic but shit........ well you are not sitting on the fuel tank either now are you and there are lots of metal phosphates including Iron in these batteries no?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate

Just what do you think Iron phosphate gel becomes as it gasses and the lithium battery expires?

Doesn't it become a "dust like substance" which than makes it flammable and explosive with other fine elements?

A bag of flour is not explosive or flammable but atomize it and light a match and the whole house will blow up.

Major reason for debris and de-burring of materials & collection by downdraft tables in industrial application's and why blast cabinets go from a few hundred bucks to $20K.

Think about it Uwe we were just talking about intake leaks or throttle issues on diesel. Consider what happened on the oil rigs running on natural gas and then running away to explode the platform.

If you have a fuel leak under hood or into a traditional diesel intake path there is no way to control air...... it runs away.

I used to see assholes use wrong clamps on the VAG 068 series and or the weeper lines for vacuum line, then they squirt under hood and bam that little diesel would run away or even from oil sucked in air cleaner from blow by!
 
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   #196  

NZDubNurd

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Yeah maybe not metallic but shit........ well you are not sitting on the fuel tank either now are you ...
I have slight concerns when driving my parents '29 Ford A - have you seen the fuel gauge in them:



That little window is INTO the fuel tank, and that flat metal panel with the AMP meter, speedo and dash light are mounted ON it :eek:


Anyway: My thoughts on EV's and I think maybe a lot of peoples mind sets??? I looked at a used to leaf to replace Mrs Nurds BMW. I couldn't justify the cost on 8 years of payback, so wasn't interested in spending more to bet a car nowhere near as nice to drive as her 17 year old BMW. Of course she is going to have the Bluran 2.0 once I have the R32ran sorted.

I KNOW that the battery will be rebuildable, or replaceable at some stage, maybe even new tech that can be added. But, Still, I work on the theory the car will be a write off when the battery is poked. I also know the car is entirely usable for us, with 50% battery capacity remaining.

I think a lot of people think like that.

I always buy cheap cars*, but those who buy relatively expensive cars could justify the used EV based on $ - as long as it works for them. But I think they'll struggle with the thought of the battery dying.


*and spend 4 times their value on repairs and modifications :-)
 
   #197  

Uwe

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Yes, Jack, li-ion batteries can catch fire if abused. But they do not burn anywhere near as fast or energetically as gasoline or diesel. Chances of becoming a crispy critter in a BEV are, IMO, much less than in a traditionally fueled car.
 
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   #199  

Andy

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True, but really, how much more complex than a normal ICE is it... ICE also have large amounts of electronics, an increasing number of batteries, and electric motors.
To beat a dead horse a little more:



Some neat diagrams here:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/11/20151103-a3.html

Compared to a conventional gas engine in the same car (I assume you can get a 2018 A3 1.4T DSG FWD sportback in RoW) you get rid of the starter and the alternator. But you add in an insanely complex array of cooling and heating equipment (in addition to the obvious battery and electric motor). There is an electric A/C compressor and coolant circulation pump(s) that not only heat and cool the cabin, but heat and cool the battery pack, as well as all of the big shiny metal boxes under the hood. Even my B6 S4 that had 3 radiators was nowhere near as complex as this.
 
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