01 TDI Beetle hard start cold. 126,000 miles automatic

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Larry Manton

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Jack Sprat, good morning.

Larimore here................ been having trouble with the wifes beetle initial hard start when cold. Did an auto scan and can post but no codes except the usual mirror one, but insignificate. IMO.

Cranks for 5/5 seconds, may or may not bark. Stop..........then crank again and may take 4/5 seconds then lites off, and has quite a bit of smoke so was getting fuel, and from then on good, and morning temp here about 55/65F so not cold.

Thought maybe timing a hair off, but spot on, and I mean spot on. So Hooked up light to fuel solenoid, and it is coming on with key. Then swapped it with my other TDI for giggles, no change. Then noted this morning testing further test light to Glow plug, no light on initial crank or key on.........then light comes on about 4/5 seconds after running, but none up to then.

Had @ one time a glow plug light code too cluster, but none now and light in cluster has not worked for a long time (maybe something too the problem??? ) but doubt it. I stated maybe a problem as with some Euro equipment (PVC welders) here @ work the light on the panel is part of the system, and when they are out so is the whole tree, don't know if that applies here, but just mentioning it.

Have not looked further as is this an ECM command issue?, (don't know) but thought I would ask before I chase down relays and such, but glow does come on but not until engine is running for 4/5 seconds, seems wrong.


Larimore
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Ja ja .......Hello Larrymore......Morning!

Sounds like two possibilities.........timing needs to be advanced or a slight fuel air leak with pump losing prime when cold.

Check fuel filter is tight on bottom bleeder drain and that the recirculation return line at filter is not leaking at the o-ring.

Check all lines from tank to pump for loose clamp or air leak.

Post a log of immediate commencement after it fires up.

0x01-03 start first test then back to 0x01-08-000 Log data for 20 seconds.

Also show me a log of base timing cold 0x01-04-000 & for 30 seconds.

Post a scan for continuity purposes and the collective please.

 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, will comply with auto scan, but had trouble with loss of prime @ pump before. Solution, went to clear tygon lines, placing the infeed side higher than pump so as to be able to view prime in this line @ all times, which seemed to work. Not saying there might not be an air comprimise beyond that but infeed line is loaded with no air during problematic incidence.

Wil post a screen capture of timing in real time, and also try and comply with your request. Did note in one pid............that timing for pump during idle actual did not comply with specified, although I found that odd, as this was @ the same time using TDI timing graph and showed it spot on, would like opinions on that. OKay???, I know, opening myself up to a major thumping, but I like pain, bring it on. quote from Heir Jack "timing might need to be advanced" are you saying that on occasion the timing picture in the graph can be altered to suit the situation?, or am I reading too much into that, just asking?, don't beat me MASSA.

Your faithful servant Larimore.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Wouldn't hurt to add a lift pump for that old timer ALH............I run them in my customers cars.

Yes timing can be off in extreme climate change situations.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, any advice on putting in a lift pump??? some inline like I use on the Cummins?? FASS, or would that be in the tank with some homeboy retro fitting?

Thought I saved the auto scan, but wrong, 1st time wrong in 2017, had a perfect year going, then I talked to Jack. all Jacks fault again. I will try and lite it off cold tomorrow AM and capture again.

Thanks again.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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I'm the scapegoat Ill accept that.........

Yup Mr. Gasket makes a nice in line pump that can be placed before the filter.
 
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ivagp

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^can u provide a part# and some pics, how u wired it in
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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^can u provide a part# and some pics, how u wired it in
Your wish is granted!

Terminal 85 and 86 can be reversed on the relay ........as it's a coil and really doesn't give a shit it just takes what it wants.

Please see picture........

https://s15.postimg.org/fgrj2qux7/enhanced_TDI_lift_pump.png


enhanced_TDI_lift_pump.png


NostraJackAss Has Spoken!
 
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ivagp

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I don't know if I got dazzled by all the eye candy but I can't find the part number cool pics
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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You don't want this pump it's the loud HD one that annoys everyone.

You want the Mr. Gasket one ( 12D )

Additionally instead of using the supplied filter I'd install a right angle coupling, so it fits nicer.

Sometimes I extract it from its housing too.

If you decide you do want this HD pump we have them for $75 USD.......but remember it's loud!
 
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ivagp

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hi jack thanks for that, the reviews aren't so great jack on 12d:confused:, also whats the part# on the hd. are the reviewers just imbeciles?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Well the 12D lasts about 3 years on average.
No part number on the hd one cause we ordered them custom with short metal connections when we ordered a gross of them ten years ago.

When either pump type fails it continues to free flow and that feature is important.
 
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ivagp

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that was my next ? that it flows. good to know.
 
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Larry Manton

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Code:
Saturday,17,June,2017,10:44:29:01722
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
VCDS Version: 17.1.3.0 (x64)
Data version: 20170320 DS267.7
[url]www.Ross-Tech.com[/url]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 9C - VW New Beetle (1999 > 2010)
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 17 19 25 29 35 37 39 46 54 56 65 75
 
   Mileage: 199340km-123864miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 038-906-012-AGR.lbl
   Part No: 038 906 012 CR
   Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G400AG  2841  
   Coding: 00001
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 62C0B0B8EE490B519F-4ACE

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 01M-927-733.lbl
   Part No: 01M 927 733 KA
   Component: AG4 Getriebe 01M    4836  
   Coding: 00011
   Shop #: WSC 00000  
   VCID: 79F2F7D463DFE889AE-095A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ABS.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 907 379 J
   Component: ABS FRONT MK60      0103  
   Coding: 0004097
   Shop #: WSC 23328 328 00076
   VCID: 31620FF4AB2FE0C956-5102

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
   Part No: 6Q0 909 605 A
   Component: 25 AIRBAG VW5  0E   0006  
   Coding: 12853
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 356A3BE40F47CCE90A-4AE6

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 1C0-920-xx0.lbl
   Part No: 1C0 920 901 
   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. M73 V07  
   Coding: 03202
   Shop #: WSC 23345  
   VCID: 59B29754C31FC889CE-4AE6

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: Ident
   Component: Nr. Wegfahrs.:VWZ5Z0Y6072070  
   Ident.-Nr. Wegfahrs.:VWZ5Z0Y6072070

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway        Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
   Part No: 6N0 909 901 
   Component: Gateway K<->CAN    V072  
   Coding: 00007
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 70E4CAF030A5A9C119-4AE6

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 1J0-959-799.lbl
   Part No: 1J0 959 799 AR
   Component: 7S Zentral-SG Komf. 0001  
   Coding: 00256
   Shop #: WSC 00066  
   VCID: 0E18B4084A51DF316B-4ACE

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1J2959802C
   Component: 7S Tõrsteuerger. FS0002r  

   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1J2959801D
   Component: 7S Tõrsteuerger. BF0002r  

5 Faults Found:
00953 - Interior Light Time limit 
            25-10 - Unknown Switch Condition - Intermittent
00928 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Front Driver Side (F220) 
            54-00 - Incorrectly Equipped
00943 - Heated Exterior Mirror; Driver Side (Z4) 
            35-00 -  - 
01358 - Internal Central Locking Switch; Driver Side (E150) 
            27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00944 - Heated Exterior Mirror; Passenger Side (Z5) 
            35-00 -  - 

End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 03:48

Okay, here is auto scan, nothing too see just the same mirror issues I have before.

Retarded the timing to within spec but just above the red line and car now starts instantly, no smoke. My gut feel was car bucked just like an advanced gas car, so I retarded it for giggles. (don't beat me Jack) I have several JPEG with text I wanted to post as have questions why my 99 TDI Alh has such different numbers than the beetle, although one being auto and the other stick, may make difference. One question when in basic 004 numbers go from like 7BTC to 4 about every 9 seconds. Then when viewed in measuring blocks 004 they are @ .2ATD and specified 1.3 ATDC. How would I get these numbers of .2 and 1.3 to get closer. Would this have anything too do with adjusting the numbers in the settings which is strongly discouraged? If viewing the Jetta (standard) the specified might be like 2atdc and the actual would be almost the same, not so in the beetle.

Struggle with timing Actual and specified is different on both cars but appear to be cam and crank and pump in time. My original question to Jack do some cars have their own personality where the spot on graph for an example does not fit well in another unit.

Noted @ idle Beetle auto uses .4lth compared to Jetta stick uses .2 lth double the beetle just sitting @ idle. Noted in coding that both units have not been tampered with and number on coding is 32768 which I assume is factory as I never played with either. Assuming this is factory as I bought both cars used, and highly doubt they have been tampered with.

Had sever JPG with text I would like to drop here but me and this site do not get along. I cannot paste them here which I would like too.

Larrimore
 
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   #17  

Larry Manton

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Jack, again thanks a lot, makes some sense.

That said what would be the advice for trying to get specified closer to Acutaul, in this case specified 1.3 ATD and actual @ .2ATD, or is Larimore picking fly poop out of the pepper?

Have driving now for 2 days with the slightly retarded and starts stellar, works for me.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Jack, again thanks a lot, makes some sense.

That said what would be the advice for trying to get specified closer to Acutaul, in this case specified 1.3 ATD and actual @ .2ATD, or is Larimore picking fly poop out of the pepper?

Have driving now for 2 days with the slightly retarded and starts stellar, works for me.

Hello Larrymore..........

It would start with using the tables specified in the repair manual and not a table you keep referencing as a guide......shame shame!

Show me data..........Please!

Engine COLD!
0x01-03- start commencement test then immediately log 0x01-08-000 20 seconds.

0x01-04-000 COLD and logged at idle for 30 seconds.

0x01-04-000 MID heat warm up transition point....log 30 seconds.

0x01-04-000 HOT and logged at idle for 30 seconds.

What is the data please post it?

 
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Larry Manton

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Repsectfully, have never done the log thing, will look it over and capture it for you. Will have to read up a little on that for you. Was under the impression that the only testing was get the dynamic timing with in spec, and then ECM dictated what happened.

When logging in for 20/30 seconds will this graph over time or what?? ,new ground for me.


Wife is gone with it @ this time, will be a few days.
 
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Larry Manton

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Jack, looked this up.............am I heading in the right direction???

http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/logging.php

1. Choose group or groups that you want to view.
2. Click [Log]
3. Use default file name if desired. It will append the old file if you use a particular name more than once.
4. Click [Start]
5. Drive the car through the tests that you want to perform
6. Click [Stop]
7. Click [Done, Close] when you're finished logging data.
8. Open Microsoft Excel
9. Click File->Open (change filetype to all *.*)
10. Locate the *.csv file that you created, typically in C:\ross-tech\vcds\Logs\
11. With mouse select the columns you want to graph.
12. Click the Chart Wizard button.
13. Select XY (Scatter) and click one of the formats that has lines.
14. The chart wizard will prompt you to name axes if you want.
15. Pick, for example, RPM values for the x-axis and IAT for the y-axis
You can also use the [Graph] button to open up the VC-Scope plug-in for VCDS that allows you to replay LOG files. See the VC-Scope page.

Warning!

If you're going to use VCDS while you're driving, please use a second person!
Let one drive while the other observes the data, making sure the person holding the PC is not in front of an active airbag! Obviously, do not break any laws, speeding or otherwise while using VCDS!
 
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