Testbench setup?

Zenerdiode said:

Quite the opposite Don, I'm afraid. The 'Cluster Code' (a series of about 7 bytes) gets written to the key when programming. Since about IMMO3 the chip in your key fob is program once only. It may be repeatedly programmed to the same cluster however, (when eradicating lost fobs for example) as the Cluster Code doesn't change.

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With Immo-3 it was possible to have one key working with multiple clusters. The trick was to match the second cluster to the original car's ECU first. I know a guy who had three different MY 2004 cars (two TDIs and a Golf-R, all Mk.4 chassis) and the same key would work in all of them. Of course, they all thought they had the same VIN too.

I do not know whether this sort of trickery is still possible with current generation immobilizers.


-Uwe-

Zenerdiode/Uwe: many thanks for your responses-both very helpful!

If I'm reading your responses correctly - I think that you are saying that there is not much risk to the key's operation on my physical mk7 if it is also registered to the instrument cluster on my virtual mk7 (test-bench), which are identical modules (since the "one-time-code" in the fob is inviolate once entered into the key transponder. I hope that I'm interpreting your responses correctly.

But I think what is also being said is that the test bench might need to believe that it has the VIN of my physical mk7 - which is not a big problem given that currently the CAN Gateway, ECU, BCM and instrument cluster on the test bench ALL have different VIN s.

A test-bench certainly is an excellent learning tool!

Don

Hey Uwe ....yeah it's possible to do just like feJ did with or without vin number in later CAN stuff to.

My sadly deficient knowledge continues to be a problem and I have another inane question that relates to the immobiliser reader coil (which the WD for the instrument module calls "D2") on the instrument panel on my test bench. Has anyone ever fabricated an immobilizer reader coil? I'm assuming that it's a simple wound coil of wire (D2 has just the two connections) but how many turns and what gauge wire. Probably never been done as a DIY task, but thought that I would ask

Thanks in advance

Don

DV52 said:

My sadly deficient knowledge continues to be a problem and I have another inane question that relates to the immobiliser reader coil (which the WD for the instrument module calls "D2") on the instrument panel on my test bench. Has anyone ever fabricated an immobilizer reader coil? I'm assuming that it's a simple wound coil of wire (D2 has just the two connections) but how many turns and what gauge wire. Probably never been done as a DIY task, but thought that I would ask

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Unless you specifically want the challenge of fabricating your own, why don't you just pick up one off eBay? It doesn't have to be from a VAG car. At the end of the day it's just a coil of thin copper wire with a double pin connector on. If you search eBay for "transponder aerial" and you should find a few

You can see one working in one of my videos here...

GaryM said:

At the end of the day it's just a coil of thin copper wire with a double pin connector on.

Click to expand...

Are you sure there isn't some ferrite involved?

-Uwe-

Uwe said:

Are you sure there isn't some ferrite involved?

-Uwe-

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Not with in the ones I've had dealings with. The transponder pickup ring / antenna is simply constructed by way of some very fine copper wire wound around the outside of the plastic ring which in turn is fitted around the ignition key switch. I guess the close proximity of the coil with the key induces enough current to power up and communicate with the RFID transponder in the key without the need for a ferrite core.

GaryM said:

Unless you specifically want the challenge of fabricating your own, why don't you just pick up one off eBay? It doesn't have to be from a VAG car. At the end of the day it's just a coil of thin copper wire with a double pin connector on. If you search eBay for "transponder aerial" and you should find a few

You can see one working in one of my videos here...

Click to expand...

Gary: Thanks for the response and the excellent video indeed ( albeit, I wish I knew more about what was going on in the video)

Given your surprising reply to Uwe's question, I thought (incorrectly as it now appears) that there was only a rough RF coupling between the transponder in the key and the D2 coil. So - contrary to your suggestion, I thought I would go the DIY route (because I couldn't find a coil in Australia Ebay and I would need to wait quite a while for delivery from Europe/China, or any where else).

Anyhow, I can confirm that the voice coil from a speaker doesn't work and simply wrapping 20 (or so) turns of hook-up wire around the key doesn't work.

So I will try your suggestion (which I probably should have done first-off.

Again thanks for the response

Don

PS: Just to confirm my understanding - I'm assuming that the values that I'm meant to see in Advanced measurement (for the Instrument control module) if the coil reader is working properly is some response in the "Key identification" entries and some type of more-meaningful response from "Transponder ID current Key- Key Transponder ID" record - Is this correct?

DV52 said:

Gary: Thanks for the response and the excellent video indeed ( albeit, I wish I knew more about what was going on in the video)

Given your surprising reply to Uwe's question, I thought (incorrectly as it now appears) that there was only a rough RF coupling between the transponder in the key and the D2 coil. So - contrary to your suggestion, I thought I would go the DIY route (because I couldn't find a coil in Australia Ebay and I would need to wait quite a while for delivery from Europe/China, or any where else).

Anyhow, I can confirm that the voice coil from a speaker doesn't work and simply wrapping 20 (or so) turns of hook-up wire around the key doesn't work.

So I will try your suggestion (which I probably should have done first-off.

Click to expand...

In a nutshell, that video shows the results after I have extracted data from the immobiliser ECU, decoded the relevant bytes, and then used the data to program some new transponders which have been fitted into those keys. All the details are in the description under the video.

I also opened up one of my transponder programmers that has a tube in the middle which you just drop the key into to program it and can confirm the same. No ferrite core for the winding - just some very thin wire wound around the plastic tube that is then simply soldered onto the programmer circuit board. Maybe the wire is a special type that has a specific resistance profile, or maybe the number of windings around the ring/tube actually matter. I just measured the resistance on the transponder pickup aerial ring that you see being used in my video and it measures 2.8 ohms.

GaryM said:

In a nutshell, that video shows the results after I have extracted data from the immobiliser ECU, decoded the relevant bytes, and then used the data to program some new transponders which have been fitted into those keys. All the details are in the description under the video.

I also opened up one of my transponder programmers that has a tube in the middle which you just drop the key into to program it and can confirm the same. No ferrite core for the T- just some very thin wire wound around the plastic tube that is then simply soldered onto the programmer circuit board. Maybe the wire is a special type that has a specific resistance profile, or maybe the number of windings around the ring/tube actually matter. I just measured the resistance on the transponder pickup aerial ring that you see being used in my video and it measures 2.8 ohms.

Click to expand...

Gary: hmm ....2.8 ohms? Then I don't feel so foolish using the 4 ohm voice coil from a cheap speaker that I had in my junk box! I took comfort from your statement to Uwe that the " antenna is simply constructed by way of some very fine copper wire wound around the outside of the plastic ring". I instantly pictured the speaker coil, but as I said, it didn't work- so perhaps there was a mismatch in the resonant frequency of the speaker coil - I don't know.

Anyhow, just ordered a VW coil from eBay - it's coming from a fictional land near to you which is vaguely connected to Australia and with which we share the same Monarch (not sure how efficient UK postage is- but delivery to the antipodes is not normally quick)!

Thanks again for the help

Don

DV52 said:

Anyhow, just ordered a VW coil from eBay - it's coming from a fictional land near to you which is vaguely connected to Australia and with which we share the same Monarch (not sure how efficient UK postage is- but delivery to the antipodes is not normally quick)!

Click to expand...

In my experience, postage from here to Oz isn't usually too bad unless the seller has been a cheapskate and sent it by boat I've sent a few things across to Oz including one item to Tasmania 3 or 4 years back. In fact the ECU, immobiliser and keys in my video were sent off to a guy in NZ once I'd finished coding them up and they only took 4 or 5 days to arrive if my memory serves me well.

GaryM said:

In my experience, postage from here to Oz isn't usually too bad unless the seller has been a cheapskate and sent it by boat I've sent a few things across to Oz including one item to Tasmania 3 or 4 years back. In fact the ECU, immobiliser and keys in my video were sent off to a guy in NZ once I'd finished coding them up and they only took 4 or 5 days to arrive if my memory serves me well.

Click to expand...

Gary: I like your optimism - we will see!

If I can indulge your kindness a little further -would you mind making a comment regarding my PS question, please (or is my question too specific to the Golf mk7 module on my instrument panel)?

dv52 said:

PS: Just to confirm my understanding - I'm assuming that the values that I'm meant to see in Advanced measurement (for the Instrument control module) if the coil reader is working properly is some response in the "Key identification" entries and some type of more-meaningful response from "Transponder ID current Key- Key Transponder ID" record - Is this correct?

Click to expand...

Don

DV52 said:

If I can indulge your kindness a little further -would you mind making a comment regarding my PS question, please (or is my question too specific to the Golf mk7 module on my instrument panel)?

DV52 said:

PS: Just to confirm my understanding - I'm assuming that the values that I'm meant to see in Advanced measurement (for the Instrument control module) if the coil reader is working properly is some response in the "Key identification" entries and some type of more-meaningful response from "Transponder ID current Key- Key Transponder ID" record - Is this correct?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I've just checked this on my car and can confirm that the value you see for the "Transponder ID current Key" measuring block is the ID of the transponder that is currently inserted into the ignition. In my case, the ID value I saw next to "Transponder ID current Key" was identical to the value for "Transponder ID Key 2". I haven't tried with no transponder because I have an old school non-KESSY setup which still uses an ignition barrel and bladed key. The ignition needs to be on for VCDS to work and I don't really want to start unnecessarily dismantling my key to remove the transponder just to do a test, so I think we can take your results for granted that with no transponder present you always see a "N/A" value against the "Transponder ID current Key" measuring block

^^^^ Gary: Many thanks for taking the time to confirm my question - much appreciated

Don

DV52 said:

Here's what it looks like (I had to raid the LED junk-box to make-up the simulated taillight/headlight board and the simulated rotary light switch still needs more work):

Don

Click to expand...

Don, I have a favor to ask. Do you think you can find the combination of pins/voltages on your ignition switch that tells the J527 to turn the ignition ON? I got a J527 here but I was expecting the switch (D - 5Q0 905 849 xx), which I don't have, to be better documented in the diagrams / less complicated than 5x "this pin goes to this pin" Otherwise I might have to source one (horrors). I can't take apart Andy's or Helen's MQB to probe for that info because they're both keyless (horrors, again). Thank you

Uwe can kill this link if needed but "T6l" is the same connector name in the Mk5 and Mk7. Since the Mk7 diagrams fail to show what's what I suggested ASSuming it it wired like this random 2009 Mk5 Golf:

We think we have this sorted and my Mk5 diagram theory is busted. Eric's gonna jump T6l/3 to T6/4,5,6

Yeah that didn't pan out. Good news is the module is talking and i can see the terminal statuses.

Eric: My test bench is still like a belligerent child - but it has evolved somewhat since the embryonic version in that early picture. Since the picture was taken, I also found it useful to have a separately switchable "S" contact in the ignition switch - this involved modifying the key switch (removing a spring) and extending the contacts for the S switch to an external single-pole-single-throw switch. You might consider doing the same

Don

PS: I'm more than happy to fire-up my trusty multi-meter and produce a logic diagram for the key switch connector if you still need it

I do need it! I'm merely interested in a permanent terminal 15 solution so other modules can power up and talk to VCDS.