VCDS 17925 P1517 fault code ECU Relay J271 - 1.8T Cranks, BUT no start

   #41  

r32caravelle

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Couple of things I need to correct.

1. The so called Load Reduction Relay J59 - marked "100" which is located next to the ECU J271 relay, is in fact the Secondary Air Injection (SAI) Pump J299 Relay aka "100" relay. Have installed the revised 100 relay which is now "644" light-green relay - part# 4H0951253 for anyone who wants to look it up. From the WD, I can see this has no bearing with the ECU relay anyway.

2. Apologies, Pin 3/86 on the ECU J271 relay is in fact just 'looped' from Pin 1/30 on the relay housing which has permanent +12v , so this also has +12v whether IGN on or off

Worth a try, but as I thought placing a GND wire directly onto the ECU casing did nothing.

I took apart the ECU relay housing to double check wiring at the relay box - every single wire looks perfect at the relay housing with no corrosion or breaks that are visible.

I have tested the ECU + ECU relay wiring with a DVM and also using continuity resistance 'buzzer' tests to check and verify end-to-end track paths.

-So, as mentioned previously and HMC has confirmed - if the ECU relay Pin 5/85 is supposed to be receiving +12v trigger from the ECU T121/21 - and it's exhibiting "0.5v" with IGN off and "0.35v" with IGN on, then this MUST mean there is resistance / faulty connection in the earth/ground path to the ECU or leading to the ECU.

Code:
                Address 01: Engine       Labels: None
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 032 FT
  Component and/or Version: 1.8l 5VT NB MT  G   3996
           Software Coding: 00001
            Work Shop Code: WSC 00066  
           Additional Info: WVWZZZ9CZ2M604011     VWZ5Z0Z5141333
                      VCID: 75EBCB5E4FA118E9CA-515E
2 Faults Found:

17987 - Throttle Actuator (J338) 
            P1579 - 35-00 - Adaptation Not Started
17069 - ECM Power Relay Control Circuit 
            P0685 - 35-00 - Open Circuit

Readiness: 0110 1101

Wiki suggests:

  • Possible Causes:
    Voltage supply issue for ECM
    Faulty ECM Relay (J271)

    Possible Solutions:
    Test voltage supply to ECM
    Check wiring and fuses
    Replace Faulty ECM Relay (J271)

As mentioned previously, measuring at the ECU harness (with the ECU out and IGN on or off):

T121/1 GND ok
T121/2 GND ok
T121/3 +12v ok via 15a Fuse 29

I've checked, cleaned and re-seated all the 3-main GND points in the plenum chamber, one of which is next to the ECU itself. Plus, the other couple of GND points in the engine bay - one with the Coil Pack harness by the coils and the other below the left side headlight near the air-box.

The only other GND point that I can think that 'may' have some bearing is the one on the IGN switch housing.. but I suspect that's ok as I have power to everything with IGN on.

I can work if a wire(s) has a break or relay is faulty etc etc... but this has really got me stumped.. Not sure where else to look ?
 
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   #42  

Jack@European_Parts

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I have tested the ECU + ECU relay wiring with a DVM and also using continuity resistance 'buzzer' tests to check and verify end-to-end track paths.

This is not a sufficient way to check if a wire can carry current.

Please load the respective wire in question to ecu, with a load light and monitor with a DVOM in the AMP setting, to verify the tracks ability to carry current.
 
   #43  

r32caravelle

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This is not a sufficient way to check if a wire can carry current.

Please load the respective wire in question to ecu, with a load light and monitor with a DVOM in the AMP setting, to verify the tracks ability to carry current.

YES. Very good point.. I should have done a 'voltage drop test' to check the trigger wire's capability to carry current. Static testing with a DVM and no current flowing is not conclusive - agreed :thumbs:

Cheers.. will report back.
 
   #44  

Jack@European_Parts

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Yeah man.......... just one tiny strand of copper can get you the buzzer or voltage display on a meter.

It's what I like to refer to as "an asshole ground" in some cases.

Asshole grounds are the worst and even have plagued dummies like me or the smartest of French engineers..........:p
 
   #45  

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Asshole grounds are the worst and even have plagued dummies like me or the smartest of French engineers..........:p

Or plagued old fart electrical engineers who cant see 2 inches in front of their face! hehe :D
 
   #46  

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"So, as mentioned previously and HMC has confirmed - if the ECU relay Pin 5/85 is supposed to be receiving +12v trigger from the ECU T121/21".
That is not what I said, as far as I can see Pin 85 of the relay is switched to EARTH by the ECU. So you will have NBV on it until the ECU see's a signal from the crank sensor and switches the line to earth ( less than 0.25v) to switch the relay on and power the relevant circuits.
Regards HMC
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Meh....... you guys are from the UK, so you don't have the asshole song..........I'm willing to share..........?

The ECU switches ground ..........it would be smart to check the grounds to the ECU it switches are also ok.
 
   #48  

r32caravelle

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ok, the results are in.

Carried out 'voltage drop tests' with test bulb in situ to measure and verify end-to-end track paths / wires:

J271 / #428 Relay Pins:

1/30 -> 185mV drop (+12v Battery Voltage / Permanent live)
5/85 -> 253mV drop (GND / Earth Trigger from ECU T121/21)
3/86 -> 189mV drop (+12v Battery Voltage / Permanent live)

J220 / T121 ECU ECM:

1 -> 141mV drop (GND / earth)
2 -> 138mV drop (GND / earth)
3 -> 0.482v drop (IGN +12v)

Woah - all this time - there we have it!! The power to the ECU on Pin 3 ... -As the DTC wiki suggested "Test voltage supply to ECM". !

0.482v drop is nearly 1/2 volt - which obviously is not good news for the ECU.

I decided to remove the FUSE 29 (ECU Fuse) at the side panel, and conduct a voltage drop / Load test at both the left and right side terminals of the Fuse Holder independently.

-Right side Fuse Holder with Test Bulb in situ (incoming +12v supply) showed 290mV drop

-Left side Fuse Holder wire going to T121/3 (power wire to ECU) with Test Bulb in situ, showed 258mV drop


hhhmmm. So, don't think the above is good, especially when combined - 290mV + 258mV voltage drop is the cause of this issue, by the time it reaches the ECU it's around 0.5v+ drop

I tried cleaning the FUSE holder contacts to no avail.. still losing a lot of current. Do you think I need to drop the Side Fuse Panel and check the connections?

I realise now why I had the : 17746 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) P1338 - 35-00 - Open or Short to Plus DTC... around a month ago... I think the power supply for FUSE 29 also supplies the CPS too?

-Anyway, where exactly does the power for the ECU / FUSE 29 originate from?.. and What do you guys suggest next steps...?
 
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r32caravelle

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Unfortunately, been busy over the last 4-5 weeks and haven't had a chance to troubleshoot the ~0.5v Voltage drop at the ECU @ T121/3 on the beetle. Still off the road after ~3months.. :cry: and would really appreciate some help here..


Now, we really need it back up and running again.. and have looked at the WD and am a little confused. Working backwards from the ECU to determine this voltage drop.. it goes:


ECU T121/3 -> T6/1 [6-pin BROWN connector in plenum chamber] -> [A104] Plus connector -2- (15) in instrument panel wiring harness -> Fuse 29 / S229 15a -> [A2] Plus connection (15) in instrument panel wiring harness

I know where the T6/1 connector is and that connection / wire appears fine... where are these [A104] and [A2] connectors / connections..? Is this around the Ignition Switch.. as T121/3 is the Switched Live for the ECU..?

-Would anyone know, as it's a bit vague in the WD
 
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   #51  

r32caravelle

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For **** sake. Like seriously , this has been a REAL learning lesson... :banghead: :banghead:

it IS ECU Pin 62 aka T121/62 that is the cause of this damn issue... [I RETRACT MY PREVIOUS STATEMENTS]

documented here at the bottom of the wiki:

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17069/P0685


so, I've got a huge 0.499 Voltage drop on this @sshole power wire *NOT* ECU Pin 3 power wire as i thought previously..

With ignition on .. up to ECU Fuse 10 it's only got 69mV drop.. so I'm trying to trace this ecu power wire all the way to the ECU T121/62 from that fuse....

So, with that ....

PLEASE PLEASE can somebody tell me where the hell is the following connector:

"Plus connector -1- (30a), in engine compartment wiring harness"

this "connector" sits between Fuse 10 and the ECU
 
   #52  

Jack@European_Parts

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I reiterate Post # 49

So are you running with voltage applied to pin 62 ?

Post a screen shot of your WD.

You need to check ignition switch and the connection at the J59 load reduction relay in addition fuse S176 on the battery fuse box and the fuse box itself for a TSB/Campaign supersession.

Use a tone generator to trace the wire in hidden bundles of harness and if you have to open it up fix it or run an overlay.


https://s14.postimg.org/jhfmua28h/The_lazy_brit_with_no_wd_fuse_10_anyone.png


The_lazy_brit_with_no_wd_fuse_10_anyone.png
 
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   #53  

r32caravelle

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really appreciate your help man..

So (probably overdid it -- but on a 15yr old VW not taking any chances) :

  1. Checked and even replaced the ignition switch (genuine VW part) and cleaned associated ground
  2. Removed + Cleaned ALL vehicle grounds
  3. Removed Battery (about 1yr old), Cleaned and reseated terminals
  4. Removed ALL fuses, ALL relays and completely removed Relay Panel under dash to inspect and clean then re-installed - under dash relays are (from left to right):

  • Dual Horn Relay -J4- Relay # 53 [tested ok on bench]
  • Load Reduction Relay -J59- Relay # 100 [tested ok on bench]
  • Not used / Empty
  • Fuel Pump (FP) Relay -J17- Relay # 409 [replaced with newer revision # 1J0906383c and tested ok]


...and Completely stripped the Fuse box above battery - cleaned and re-seated every Terminal FUSE - which includes Fuse S176 for relay panel (looked absolutely fine anyway)


-Still getting huge 0.499Vdrop to ECU Pin 62 aka T121/62 with ignition on. The other main ECU power Pin 3 [T121/3] shows ~92mV drop with IGN on .. so that looks good.

So, before I overlay this shitty tin wire T121/62...

I just want to inspect the "connection between the Fuse 10/S10 and the ECU and Relay" as that 'could' be a bottleneck problem .. it appears to power the ECU J271 relay # 428 (which does NOT click with IGN on!)


On your WD that you kindly attached it shows as:

"D52 - Positive (+) connection (15a), in engine compartment wiring harness"

on my WD as below, it shows as something sligtly different?

"D78 - Plus connector -1- (30a), in engine compartment wiring harness"

... where is this stupid connection / connector ??!
 
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   #54  

r32caravelle

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where is the elusive "D78 - Plus connector -1- (30a), in engine compartment wiring harness"





ECU_Wiring_Diagram_Pinouts1.png


ECU_Wiring_Diagram_Pinouts2.png
 
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   #55  

Jack@European_Parts

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where is the elusive "D78 - Plus connector -1- (30a), in engine compartment wiring harness"



I'm going to show you why the information in the JPPSG and PR-Codes are relevant by my own investigation.

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...essional-Problem-Solver-Guide-quot-JPPSG-quot


Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 032 FT <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< AWU Wrong hole fool!
Component and/or Version: 1.8l 5VT NB MT G 3996
Software Coding: 00001
Work Shop Code: WSC 00066
Additional Info: WVWZZZ9CZ2M60xxxx VWZ5Z0Z5141333
VCID: 75EBCB5E4FA118E9C0-5140

Do I have to get my belt?

You are in violation of FOD & being a dope..............nor have followed the JPPSG.
You are your own worst enemy!

I wrote this for stubborn, lazy, cheap, or just plain dumb people, & because you never posted the full VIN or PR-Codes like I asked..... & links to bird-drop-box don't qualify.

As you can see the VIN is highlighted as 9C and the WD you are using is for the USA 1C for AWP engine code & based on the part # 06A-906-032FT ........you have an AWU engine code!

There is no D78 in the 1C WD for AWU.

Now start doing as I say and get the correct WD to do your job and stop inducing your own demise.

Please realize that yeah, I'm a total asshole but it's with the deepest respect & attempt to help you or the collective follow a path!

Now RTFB!

 
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   #56  

r32caravelle

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LOL :o


ok, it might be a bit dumb ass - and yes probably deserve a few lashings in retrospect... .. live and learn... live and learn... :rolleyes:

but I could only find a WD for either the Beetle APH or AWP engine codes and yes, you are correct (again :mad:) - my engine code is AWU ! :facepalm:

would you point me in the direction where I can purchase the correct Beetle AWU engine code WD...?


Still.

Even if I go by your WD that you kindly posted.. it still shows that ECU T121/62 power wire going through the following connection / connector :

"D52 - Positive (+) connection (15a), in engine compartment wiring harness"

...which also in turns powers the ECU relay #428 which is not clicking / closing when IGN is on.


would you happen to know where in the engine bay? this D52 connection / connector is..?
 
   #57  

Jack@European_Parts

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LOL :o


ok, it might be a bit dumb ass - and yes probably deserve a few lashings in retrospect... .. live and learn... live and learn... :rolleyes:

but I could only find a WD for either the Beetle APH or AWP engine codes and yes, you are correct (again :mad:) - my engine code is AWU ! :facepalm:

would you point me in the direction where I can purchase the correct Beetle AWU engine code WD...?


Still.

Even if I go by your WD that you kindly posted.. it still shows that ECU T121/62 power wire going through the following connection / connector :

"D52 - Positive (+) connection (15a), in engine compartment wiring harness"

...which also in turns powers the ECU relay #428 which is not clicking / closing when IGN is on.


would you happen to know where in the engine bay? this D52 connection / connector is..?
progress.gif


It is inside the harness............

You can unwrap the tape and trace it or use a "tone" generator..........It's terminal B+ 30 anyway!
Just overlay it if you want.

Erwin has the WD.......

The schematic's are essentially the same but it's the spirit of the matter and APH verse AWP will differ from each other or the AWU.

The question I would have is do you have terminal 30 power at some connections or not and which one is it at a loss then reverse trace?
Is the fuse powered?

Does ECU switch relay pole to ground when commanded to ecu supply relay?
 
   #59  

r32caravelle

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thanks for your reply.. feared it might be within the harness.. :banghead:

I assume that "D52" connection is within the engine bay area.. rather than the plenum chamber?

considered overlay.. but I would rather try and find these 'weak points' D52 & D136 (appear to be at the same point) rather than run multiple wires if I can..

All fuses have the correct power.. the ECU T121/62 is the only wire that has nearly half volt of voltage drop...

So, as I understand this saga thus far....

as the ECU itself has insufficient power upon IGN on @ T121/62 as a result of this stupid ass 0.5vdrop .. it's NOT sending the earth trigger via T121/21 to the ECU relay J271 # 428 to click/close.. which in turn is then not supplying the required +12v to the Ignition coilpacks to fire-up and start the vehicle!
 
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   #60  

Jack@European_Parts

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thanks for your reply.. feared it might be within the harness.. :banghead:

I assume that "D52" connection is within the engine bay area.. rather than the plenum chamber?

considered overlay.. but I would rather try and find these 'weak points' D52 & D136 (appear to be at the same point) rather than run multiple wires if I can..

All fuses have the correct power.. the ECU T121/62 is the only wire that has nearly half volt of voltage drop...

So, as I understand this saga thus far....

as the ECU itself has insufficient power upon IGN on @ T121/3 as a result of this stupid ass 0.5vdrop .. it's NOT sending the earth trigger via T121/21 to the ECU relay J271 # 428 to click/close.. which in turn is then not supplying the required +12v to the Ignition coilpacks to fire-up and start the vehicle!



What is the actual voltage available at the ECU at terminal 15 and 30.........exactly please?

T121-62 = Terminal 30
T121-3 = Terminal 15
What is A = Battery Voltage at the time of this test exactly?

NostraJackAss Has Spoken!
 
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