Battery Replacement

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Welder75

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Can move to How to and tips!

Thought I'd do a quick write-up on replacing the battery in a S5 4.2 since I wasn't able to find all the correct info in one place.

1) Buy a replacement battery. Surprisingly, for me here in Canada, the dealer was cheaper than aftermarket. I paid $240 for an OEM (Varta) replacement. Part # 8K0915105F.

2) Replace Battery - this is pretty self evident and takes 10-15 minutes. The only setting I lost was the clock. Favorite radio stations, one touch windows etc., were all saved.

3) Code new battery with VCDS:
- Go to CAN Gateway 19, then Long Adaption, then Channel 4, Battery Identification.

- There are three strings of numbers in the following order (Part#, Battery Vendor, Serial #). For example:

8K0915105F VA0 080388159X

- I replaced the last 10 digits with the updated serial # on my new battery.

A few observations:
- Interestingly, the battery reading in the MMI was about 30% before and after I replaced the battery. It wasn't until I reset the battery serial # with the VCDS that it went up to 100%.

- My thoughts are that the battery reading in the MMI was never meant to give a reading based on current state voltage (…like a voltmeter would). But rather it is meant to give an indicator of overall battery life span given the monitoring of various readings over a long period of time.

- Resting voltage for my original battery was 12.1V. The new battery is 12.6V.

- Its pretty crappy given newer battery technology like AGM or VRLA (check these out if you aren't aware of them...), that we have to pay twice as much for an inferior replacement battery given the unique shape. I guess thats PAR for the course with these cars.

Cheers
 
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Zenerdiode

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Yep, I've always viewed the battery meter as a 'starting confidence' meter or ageing meter like you mention. I wonder if that is why it was disabled?

Also, if you put the car in Transport Mode; when you either switch the ignition on (or off - I can't remember) you see TRAxx in the dash - and xx represents the % you'd see in the battery meter.
 
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VAG-Dave

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Just for good measure I did a how to on the MK7 Golf when VCDS could first code the lines better & started a thread on this site (Ross-Tech).

I did a big full how to on my "home site" here:-

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7926

Same principals applies...
 
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RJG

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Great info and link to video above!

I'm having trouble coding my new battery (AutoCraft Platinum AGM). I did not see a standard BEM code sticker but did see a QR looking code and several numbers and a sticker that said "Made in Germany" on it. I also read in another forum that people have used non-OEM batteries without issue.

See pictures here: https://plus.google.com/107328482148504700973/posts/hwXxphfGARF

18 032 2 1
16 43 2 0409 N
I assumed that is the battery part # and serial number?? The battery manufacturer is JCI.

I am also getting an error stating that the new value is invalid (I tried multiple variations of spaces/no spaces, etc.).

I'm confused as to why one popup states the new value needs to be 26 digits but another popup would indicate 24. 11+3+10=24

Also, why would it put the old battery info in the "Test" field instead of giving me an error message sometimes?

If this battery doesn't have the standard BEM code sticker am I able to code a comparable battery with same/similar specs?
It is an AGM
Cold Cranking Amperage: 900
Cranking Amps: 1000 A
Reserve Capacity: 160
Any other specs that I would need to find a comparable battery with proper BEM code?

Thanks,
Ross
2010 S5
 
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Uwe

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I'm having trouble coding my new battery (AutoCraft Platinum AGM). I did not see a standard BEM code sticker
Nor would I expect a VAG-specific BEM code sticker on an generic, aftermarket battery. Note, I'm not implying there's anything wrong with using that battery, juts that you're going to have to "fake" the BEM coding.

I am also getting an error stating that the new value is invalid (I tried multiple variations of spaces/no spaces, etc.).

I'm confused as to why one popup states the new value needs to be 26 digits but another popup would indicate 24. 11+3+10=24

Also, why would it put the old battery info in the "Test" field instead of giving me an error message sometimes?

If this battery doesn't have the standard BEM code sticker am I able to code a comparable battery with same/similar specs?
It is an AGM
Cold Cranking Amperage: 900
Cranking Amps: 1000 A
Reserve Capacity: 160
Any other specs that I would need to find a comparable battery with proper BEM code?

Thanks,
Ross
2010 S5
Please post an Auto-Scan from your car so people can see what's what in it.

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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Just for good measure I did a how to on the MK7 Golf when VCDS could first code the lines better & started a thread on this site (Ross-Tech).

I did a big full how to on my "home site" here:-

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7926

Same principals applies...
First - my apology to RJG for hijacking this thread

Dave: The matter of the battery information stored in these control modules in general, and the actual battery specific data used by the CAN Gateway in particular has captured my imagination - and to be frank (at least according to my wife-whose opinion I never doubt these days) has become something of an obsession!

RT's video, and other web resources like your post have been an excellent learning tool - but I'm still at a loss to understand (in fundamental terms) the basic difference between a BEM battery and a non-BEM battery. In essence I would like to understand - what I get extra when I buy a BEM battery? And more importantly for my current obsession - how does the CAN Gateway use the extra features in a BEM battery? If I have the answers to these questions, I can make a guess at the level of compromise that occurs when a non-BEM battery is installed in vehicles with the Battery monitor modules (and "fake" settings are entered into the adaptation channels that are identified in RT's video).

And in regards to those specific adaptation channels in RT's excellent video (featuring the now-famous Ross-Tech guy), I've been exploring the absence of any mention of battery related Byte/Bits in the code-string for the CAN Gateway. I'm trying to piece together all the available information that I have to hand at the moment - so it's just a task of aligning the data from the long coding helper screens with the "long coding" screens from another device that I use. Once I have amassed the long coding descriptors, it's simply then a task of changing entries on the test bench and checking which Byte/Bit changes in the code-string. A very easy, but somewhat boring procedure!

To this end, I have now produced a more fulsome set of "long-coding" headings and Byte/Bit locations for the hex19 module in my test-bench, which has the following CAN Gateway:

Code:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway (J533)       Labels: 5Q0-907-530-V1.clb
   Part No SW: 5Q0 907 530 E    HW: 5Q0 907 530 E
   Component: GW MQB Mid    121 1109  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: 0000073193
   Coding: 000000342B086400EF0006481C0F00000001000000000000000000000000
   Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
   ASAM Dataset: EV_GatewLear 006010
   ROD: EV_GatewLear.rod
   VCID: 3326DAA49A74C0DA6D-8066

In respect of my "Herculean" quest to understand the mysterious role that BEM data plays in the operation of the CAN Gateway, here's an example of my findings (apology to Uwe for not using a VCDS screen shot, but the "other" device was a more suitable platform to display the data):

7VEkxsF.png


This is still a work-in-progrss, but what's becoming evident is that the code-string in the hex19 module (at least for the UDS protocol module on my test bench) appears to also have specific battery related entries. I have no idea what the numbers in these entries mean, but it's clearly a facility that distinguishes between manufacturers and types of batteries (i.e. Architecture). So, as with everything in this short life - the more I discover, the more I find that I don't know! For example, what happens if the adaptation channel entry in the CAN gateway related to battery type is changed, but the Btye/Bit entry in the code (for battery architecture) is incompatible with the new setting?

Anyhow, my purpose for posting is to ask for any insights that folk might have on these matters - please (this is all new stuff to me and I'm floundering in the dark at the moment)

Don
 
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Uwe

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In essence I would like to understand - what I get extra when I buy a BEM battery?
A BEM code, that in principle at least, should be acceptable to the car's software. I don't think there's any functional/physical difference between a BEM battery and non-BEM battery. At least not yet.

In respect of my "Herculean" quest to understand the mysterious role that BEM data plays in the operation of the CAN Gateway, here's an example of my findings (apology to Uwe for not using a VCDS screen shot, but the "other" device was a more suitable platform to display the data):
Huh? Most of that stuff is documented in our Long Coding Helper for that module.

-Uwe-
 
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DV52

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Huh? Most of that stuff is documented in our Long Coding Helper for that module.

-Uwe-

Uwe: Ooops - I most certainly didn't intend to imply that somehow the VCDS long coding helper screens were deficient. As I said in my post - it's simply a matter of getting as much data from where ever I can to fill-in the vast void in my understanding (it's my ignorance that's at fault - not your long coding helper screens). Here's what I have on the CAN gateway from VCDS related to the 3 x Bytes in my other screen-shot. Hopefully you can see that there is synergy by using the data from both devices. Note there are some inconsistency in descriptors between my first post screens and VCDS - but work-in-process

Don

i3ZHIts.png
 
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Zenerdiode

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I don't think there's any functional/physical difference between a BEM battery and non-BEM battery.

I've had three batteries on my A4. The original, then two warranty replacements. Each time, the dealership workshop removed the sticker from the battery that had the BEM code on it. On my latest battery, you can even see a little 'click' in the under-label where the guy's fingernail picked at the sticker. I wonder why they did that? To stick to their paperwork to prove the battery has been changed?

Not that they used the info... Before the recent introduction of the Battery History function to VCDS, I was tracking the battery serial number in the Adaptation Channels; and it never changed when they swapped the batteries. My only conclusion is when they changed it they just sent the existing details back to the module. Is there a function in ODIS to do that?

They also didn't use a battery maintainer or workshop charger, because my History Data shows two change events of 26/10/2007 which is the date the clock defaults to when the battery is removed. :rolleyes:
 
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DV52

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Arrhh............... now that's an interesting observation indeed!!! And it's entirely consistent with the settings in my data-base for every vehicle for the IDE03256-MAS06108-Battery adaptation-Battery Serial Number adaptation channel. Without exception, the value from the factory for this channel is 1111111111!

Conclusion- the serial number (of itself) is not important for how the CAN Gateway manages battery operation !

Don
 
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Uwe

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I've had three batteries on my A4. The original, then two warranty replacements. Each time, the dealership workshop removed the sticker from the battery that had the BEM code on it. On my latest battery, you can even see a little 'click' in the under-label where the guy's fingernail picked at the sticker. I wonder why they did that? To stick to their paperwork to prove the battery has been changed?
I would suppose so, but I'm not sure.

Not that they used the info... Before the recent introduction of the Battery History function to VCDS, I was tracking the battery serial number in the Adaptation Channels; and it never changed when they swapped the batteries. My only conclusion is when they changed it they just sent the existing details back to the module.
That's pretty much inexcusable.

-Uwe-
 
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VAG-Dave

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Been here done this 2yrs ago, all info in my How to Guide on Mk7 forum. I did post this link earlier in this thread & you do insist on going around in circles.

Battery BEM codes are REDUNDENT on a Mk7 Golf & others which use the same BCM adaptions channels, these provide a different way of telling the BCM what type of battery you have.

From the Main screen:-
Select Control Module [Select]
[19-CAN Gateway]
Advanced Functions screen:-
[Adaptions-10]
New value choice screen:-
Change the following four channels, inputting the relevant data about the new battery.
IDE03256-MAS06105-Battery adaptation-Rated battery capacity,
IDE03256-MAS06106-Battery adaptation-Battery technology,
IDE03256-MAS06107-Battery adaptation-Battery manufacturer,
IDE03256-MAS06108-Battery adaptation-Battery Serial Number,

QUOTE from my guide;-"Battery BEM codes are now redundant with the above separate channels. The most important channels are, Rated battery capacity, Battery technology, & Battery Serial Number. For the Battery Serial Number, just change one digit of the old one. This channel tells the BCM that a new battery has been installed & to relearn the new battery & forget any “learnt values” for the old battery!"
 
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Uwe

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QUOTE from my guide;-"Battery BEM codes are now redundant with the above separate channels. The most important channels are, Rated battery capacity, Battery technology, & Battery Serial Number. For the Battery Serial Number, just change one digit of the old one. This channel tells the BCM that a new battery has been installed & to relearn the new battery & forget any “learnt values” for the old battery!"
That's true -- on cars that use this newer scheme. But some of the cars being discussed in this thread don't. ;)

-Uwe-
 
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JimGrisham

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A battery is a battery, apparently. ;)

Tl;dr:
  • In a pinch, you can use any 12V battery that fits.
  • If you can only find/afford one from Wal-Mart or Tesco, that's ok. (literally, YMMV)
  • As long as the new battery is approximately the same capacity as the old one, you don't even need to re-code the control module, VAG admits.
  • If you do re-code, the serial number itself doesn't matter, it should just be different from the old one so the car knows something has changed.




I had never given this all that much thought, but after doing some work on my 2010 Audi A5 (B8) I was digging a little bit further into the electrical system.

Unlike lithium ion batteries for a cellphone or computer, there is zero logic in the actual batteries for these cars. Still, I thought there could be a chance that the control module in the vehicle[SUP][1][/SUP] (or something upstream) might contain some sort of look-up table; given the lifetime of a vehicle, though, that seemed unlikely.

-


This short white-paper (in German, or in a passable translation into English by Google)[SUP][2][/SUP] was published by the German company Moll; they provided the OEM battery when my vehicle was new and sell aftermarket "BEM-compatible" batteries. Moll straight-up says that a battery is a battery, and that they even confirmed directly with Audi in Ingolstadt that there's nothing wrong with not coding your vehicle for a new battery if doing so isn't practicable.


-

Like VAG-Dave mentioned, the new serial number only serves to inform the control module that there is a new battery[SUP][3][/SUP]. Over time, the system will adapt itself to the new battery, just as it does to an aging battery or one transitioning from a hot to a cold country.

If you can re-code, do it (make up a random serial number if needed); if not, there's no reason to stress. If you don't recode, though, you might try keeping the battery at least 50% charged for the first few hundred kilometers and the first week or two[SUP][4][/SUP].

- Jim

--

[1] Specifically a J367 Battery Monitor Control Unit, in my case, located at the end of the negative battery cable in the boot. It is connected via a single-wire LIN bus connection to J533

Also, I found this:
“Quick static current measurement” capability has been implemented on the battery data module. This function is started using the Scan Tool in the “extended adaptation” mode of the Data Bus On Board Diagnostic Interface J533. The measured static current is then indicated on the Scan Tool. This function allows a quick static current measurement to be performed without the need for labor-intensive preparation of the vehicle.

So, besides monitoring battery temperature, current, and temperature, and controlling electrical loads based on capacity at the time (including locking out the starter if it thinks there's not enough energy), that's pretty much the whole enchilada. If you pull power usage logs from your control modules, having the correct serial number makes tracking things easier, too, but that's hardly a concern for most non-fleet users. It might be helpful if you're a dealer for battery warranty purposes or somesuch.

[2] http://www.moll-batterien.de/dateien/pdfs/Moll_keine_Not_ohne_Code_web.pdf
http://translate.google.com/transla...dateien/pdfs/Moll_keine_Not_ohne_Code_web.pdf

[3] ... and perhaps communicates the rated capacity to pre-UDS modules, but that's not an issue if the replacement is the same size.

[4] If you replace the battery in an emergency without coding it and don't make it to the workshop for a few weeks, you might actually want to think twice before re-coding it at that point... I imagine by then the system will have already re-adapted itself and by re-coding the module that progress would be reset. No harm, but probably not worth the time if you got to that point.
 
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Uwe

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  • In a pinch, you can use any 12V battery that fits.
Agreed.

  • If you can only find/afford one from Wal-Mart or Tesco, that's ok. (literally, YMMV)
Agreed.

  • As long as the new battery is approximately the same capacity as the old one, you don't even need to re-code the control module, VAG admits.
This, I'm not so confident in. Some of these BEM systems are insufferably stupid. To demonstrate: Connect an adequate charger up to a C6/4F A6, but instead of connecting it the way it's supposed to be connected (negative lead to the chassis) connect both leads directly to the battery. Now the BEM will only see current coming out of the battery, not the current being put back in by the charger. In this state, it will command all manner of things to power down after a certain number of amp-hours have been "drained" from the battery, all while the system voltage is happily at 13.8V or higher -- a condition under which it it simply not plausible for the battery to actually be drained!

Now you (and/or Audi) are asking me to believe that this thing will actually "learn" that a new battery has replaced an old one without any intervention? Color me skeptical.

  • If you do re-code, the serial number itself doesn't matter, it should just be different from the old one so the car knows something has changed.
Agreed. Doing nothing more than changing the serial number will cause the BEM to believe that a new battery, with the exact same characteristics as the old battery, has been installed.

-Uwe-
 
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JimGrisham

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This, I'm not so confident in. Some of these BEM systems are insufferably stupid. To demonstrate: Connect an adequate charger up to a C6/4F A6, but instead of connecting it the way it's supposed to be connected (negative lead to the chassis) connect both leads directly to the battery. Now the BEM will only see current coming out of the battery, not the current being put back in by the charger. In this state, it will command all manner of things to power down after a certain number of amp-hours have been "drained" from the battery, all while the system voltage is happily at 13.8V or higher -- a condition under which it it simply not plausible for the battery to actually be drained!

I'm not sure about the C6/4F, but on the B8 it won't see anything at all if you charge that way... the one and only current shunt is located in the BEM on the negative battery cable. It will notice a higher voltage, but won't know why (nor will it care, of course). Actually, that's pretty much exactly what you were saying... totally agree. It's a fairly dumb system[SUP][1][/SUP].

I be surprised, though, if anything over 13 volts wasn't interpreted as being connected to an alternator or workshop charger and thus bypassing shutdown routines... but that's probably going to be up to software logic in the specific power distribution control module, not a BEM. Also (disregarding surface charge effects), voltage is a fairly reliable state-of-charge indicator for lead-acid chemistry, unlike with NiMH or Li-Ion.



Now you (and/or Audi) are asking me to believe that this thing will actually "learn" that a new battery has replaced an old one without any intervention? Color me skeptical.

No, it won't learn that there's a new battery. It will, however, eventually (over several charge/discharge cycles?) recalibrate itself, in much the same way as a good GPS receiver slews to a corrected position instead of just jumping there in one step. I think of this in the same way as the throttle body is supposed to slowly re-adapt itself to your driving style after it is re-calibrated.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP]

In fact, if I had to guess, entering a new serial number probably doesn't tell the module anything except to reset all adaptations to some default, erasing any assumptions on state of charge that may exist in the system.

After, say, two weeks of driving, I would be surprised to find any significant difference between a vehicle re-coded following a battery change and an identical vehicle with just a dumb battery swap. That matches my experience, and tracks with the whitepaper from Moll.

Cheers,

- Jim


--
[1] (... and the B8 doesn't seem to shut down nearly as many systems as did my old D2... which is why I was manually performing an equalizing charge on my battery near the BEM in the first place)

[2] That's good engineering, too: if a provided value is in-range and plausible, go with it, but then adjust based on reality as time goes on... this will eventually correct for minor calculation errors, manufacturing tolerances, mechanical and electronic wear, etc.

[3] ... or telling your mechanic what you think the problem is with a vehicle. If it's plausible and you were right, it might save them some time; if you weren't, they'll figure it out eventually and charge you more.
 
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Uwe

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In fact, if I had to guess, entering a new serial number probably doesn't tell the module anything except to reset all adaptations to some default, erasing any assumptions on state of charge that may exist in the system.
Are you aware that the BEM keeps track of total energy throughput, i.e. the total number of amp-hours that have been put into and taken back out of the battery? You should be able to find this in the measuring values. I would expect it bases certain assumptions regarding the battery's condition based on this value, otherwise why would it track it, and reset it to zero only when you code in a new battery?

-Uwe-
 
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