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Thread: WTF Emissions DELETES! The smelly Garbage can dumped on Motorsports! WTF

  1. #11
    Verified VCDS User Rembrant's Avatar
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    Jack,

    Interesting thread.

    I'm curious though...in the grand scheme of things, how many people are actually having stuff deleted? I mean as a percentage of all car owners (and by car owners, I'm only referring to those that have cars that may or may not benefit from deletions). It's really just "car guys" no? I mean, every day people that use garages for repair work aren't having deletes done are they?

    I'm not really any kind of freedom fighter for the environment...but my old 03 Golf TDI still has a factory functioning EGR system, and when my down-pipe needed to be replaced, it got a factory replacement, with a cat. However, if I had a newer VW that may (or may not) benefit from many more deletes, I have to say that I'd probably do it...just to keep things simple. I've always been a little bit behind...and I've regressed even worse the past few years. All the crap on these newer cars drives me bonkers. I can fully afford a brand new VW TDI...and some days I want one, but it passes, and I continue to pour more and more money into my old 03 Golf because at the end of the day, I want a simple car.

    As far as the environment goes...one could argue...and this is my own personal opinion, but is a fuel efficient car with emissions deletes causing any more harm than the guy that passes me in a jacked up full size V8 4x4? And I'm not talking about a work vehicle...I'm talking about the pleasure vehicles, that never haul anything. I'm pluggin' along in my little old TDI getting 50mpg, and these full size trucks getting 10mpg pass me doing 75mpg all day long, every day.

    As far as the environment goes...I could have stuff deleted from my fuel efficient car and not feel any guilt about it. However, my emissions stuff is all still intact...albeit on an old school car. I guess for me, currently, it's a moot point.

    As far as garages losing work. I get that, really. I do try to do all my own work, but I also support the local independent VW shop (been in business for 50 years) when I can't do stuff myself. I was there just today for my MVI. I needed a rear wheel bearing to pass. Although I can easily do that job myself, the car was on the hoist, so I told them to go ahead and do it. The bearing cost 25% more than I can buy the same one myself, and they charged me an hour labor for what only took them 30 minutes to do. I am totally OK with this...but many people are not. I know this is how these shops make money, and I was more than happy to give it to them. However, I know more than one person that would somehow be outraged at this and feel that they were getting ripped off by the shop. It happens every day...I hear it all the time.

    Not that any of this matters all that much....just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents since I thought this was an interesting topic.

    Cheers,
    Rem
    Late build 2006 White Jetta BRM 5spd. Mile eater.

  2. #12
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    I'm curious though...in the grand scheme of things, how many people are actually having stuff deleted?
    Yup it's a serious problem......
    It's really just "car guys" no?
    Nope......

    I mean, every day people that use garages for repair work aren't having deletes done are they?
    Yup .....yes they are.

    When it comes to TDI/gas......( EGR ). I believe the OEM and government are in a gross error for the use of this single device, however, I still use it.

    The other systems are pretty amazing for function and the reduction of particulates or CO......Those numbers don't lie.

    Personally I think that the truck OEM manufactures, were just circumventing the emissions laws by making it more popular to use these, so the footprint on cars was reduced, and not factored into the production equation.
    The inverse was done when Chrysler produced electric golf carts, to get credits off the footprint of the hemi engine production.


    The reality is I have seen the solution with my own testing and eyes for the function of CF engines Power/TQ, MPG, and low emissions possibilities.

    Batteries and solar cells are not it.......not yet anyway and especially with hazardous materials created.
    Magnetic Mechanical Manipulation Motors ( Propulsion ) is the real solution.

    But if some idiot makes a CFL with mercury their all over it with a subsidy making incandescent illegal.
    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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  4. #13
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    I'm in for a discussion about emissions devices.

    I'm sort of corn fused by the premise that it results in loss of revenue. Is it that if a car has the systems deleted then none of that crap breaks and pulls codes, causing you to seek the expertise of a mechanic? If so you could argue that the amount of revenue generated by emissions chop shops might offset the downturn in shops that have been charging $150 to plug your vehicle to an OBD2 reader.

    There isn't a legal garage in my state for many years that will touch emissions in terms of removal. Not that I've bothered them for it in many years, but I tried to have some cats exterminated on my '92 SHO and the muffler shop wouldn't touch it.

    I'm actually not opposed to cat deletes if, for example, later model years omitted redundant cats. Subaru and Porsche come to mind. You still have cats, and you still could pass a sniff test. More on that in a bit.

    I read once that a 2000 Ford Expedition was a much cleaner vehicle than a 1991 Suzuki Swift. That's very telling about the technology applied to making cars clean burning.

    Regulation does force innovation. Initially the technology used to meet the requirements is troublesome, which doesn't help the popularity of the regulation. A carbureted car from the 60s may have required a deft touch of the throttle and manual choke when first started, but in general those cars ran pretty damn well. Outstanding actually.

    The absolute SHIT bolted to cars from the early 70s up until at least the time of throttle body fuel injection was a crime against motor vehicles. They ran like shit, they were slow, they had more accessory belts than a Kardashian, and trouble diagnosis was a complete crap shoot. My (yes, I owned one) Pontiac Fiero was the first car I had that could tell me what was wrong with it, while all along word on the street was a common human could no longer work on their own cars.

    With that car I could use a paper clip to jump a connection that would cause the check engine light to flash. Long flashes for 10 and short flashes for 1. Two long and a short, oh that's 21. Out comes the Hayne's manual and bingo, my "***" is TU.

    I welcomed the computerized car.

    So there's other stuff though. Like the SAI on my Porsche. I've got a code right now. The blower works, blah, blah. It is probably the change over valve, for like $120-ish (ooh, possibly a cross reference to a VW/Audi part number? $3 at a Bentley shop?

    Without that operational I can't pass my required emissions test, so it's parked (redundant since it urinated all over my driveway when I parked one night).

    Thing is, the ROW version of this car doesn't use SAI. I'm going to stick my neck out and say if the Europeans aren't freaked out about you killing babies or offending Swedes with your exhaust effluent then it's probably good enough for me.

    I'm going to make a good stab at fixing the SAI and running it as delivered. You might see how it is tempting to just push the tune from a ROW car, making my car so it just won't interact with the SAI system (therefore no CEL).

    For anyone reading who doesn't know, SAI is "secondary air injection". It pumps air into the exhaust for the first 90 seconds after starting a stone cold car. After that it takes a nap until tomorrow.

    Here's where I'm hoping to actually get schooled. I'm just an engineer who does airplane stuff, but I fail to see how pumping air into the exhaust does a damn thing but dilute your exhaust with air so we can warmly express our passion for polar bears. I'm not buying the other explanations I've read. If you pump smoke into a pipe you get smoke out the end. If you pump smoke and air into a pipe you get smoke that seems cleaner.

  5. #14
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaps10 View Post
    The absolute SHIT bolted to cars from the early 70s up until at least the time of throttle body fuel injection was a crime against motor vehicles. They ran like shit, they were slow, they had more accessory belts than a Kardashian, and trouble diagnosis was a complete crap shoot.
    None of that was true of my '77 Rabbit, my '84 GTI, or my '89 16V, nor my wife's 1985 Jetta, or the 1985 MB 190E that we replaced it with. Of course, all of then had Bosch CIS injection. The '77 never had a CAT and more than once, I got accosted for putting leaded fuel in it. "That car's too new for leaded fuel!". Uh, no. My 84 got a cam, the Euro dual outlet manifold and long dual downpipe, which made running a CAT impractical (the downpipe ended right about where the CAT ended on US car), gained about 25 hp from this, and still passed the emissions sniff tests with flying colors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaps10 View Post
    My (yes, I owned one) Pontiac Fiero was the first car I had that could tell me what was wrong with it, while all along word on the street was a common human could no longer work on their own cars.

    With that car I could use a paper clip to jump a connection that would cause the check engine light to flash. Long flashes for 10 and short flashes for 1. Two long and a short, oh that's 21. Out comes the Hayne's manual and bingo, my "***" is TU.

    I welcomed the computerized car.
    Chrysler products of that vintage didn't require a "special tool". Put key in, ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON caused them to blink out codes. 55 was "end of codes". If all you got was 55, there were no codes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaps10 View Post
    if the Europeans aren't freaked out about you killing babies or offending Swedes with your exhaust effluent then it's probably good enough for me.
    Good enough for me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaps10 View Post
    I'm going to make a good stab at fixing the SAI and running it as delivered. You might see how it is tempting to just push the tune from a ROW car, making my car so it just won't interact with the SAI system (therefore no CEL).
    Careful with that, one of the OBD-II PIDs identifies which set of OBD requirements it meets, so if you just flash in Euro software, you may still not pass an OBD-II "test".

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaps10 View Post
    I fail to see how pumping air into the exhaust does a damn thing but dilute your exhaust with air so we can warmly express our passion for polar bears. I'm not buying the other explanations I've read. If you pump smoke into a pipe you get smoke out the end. If you pump smoke and air into a pipe you get smoke that seems cleaner.
    My understanding is they also run the mixture pig rich while the SAI is active and the combination of extra fuel and extra air in the exhaust stream "lights off" the CAT more quickly than it otherwise would.

    -Uwe-
    The engineering problems are likely insurmountable. It would be like proposing to land a rocket booster section on a barge floating in the middle of the ocean.

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  7. #15
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    I was thinking mostly American cars with reference to all of the bolted on crap. You are definitely right about the Bosch injected A1 Rabbits, of which I ran several. The Bosch system on our family Saab 99GL tended to buck and fart randomly.

  8. #16
    FoRT jyoung8607's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaps10 View Post
    Here's where I'm hoping to actually get schooled. I'm just an engineer who does airplane stuff, but I fail to see how pumping air into the exhaust does a damn thing but dilute your exhaust with air so we can warmly express our passion for polar bears. I'm not buying the other explanations I've read. If you pump smoke into a pipe you get smoke out the end. If you pump smoke and air into a pipe you get smoke that seems cleaner.
    Without SAI you're emitting quite a lot of un-burned hydrocarbons for a while after a cold startup, which makes the Earth sad.

    1) The engine has to run crazy rich, as the fuel mist wants to condense on cold surfaces.

    2) The magic elements in the catalytic converters do approximately jack until they're up to a fairly high operating temperature.

    SAI helps minimize that startup time in two ways. First, pumping fresh air into the exhaust gives that leftover fuel a second chance at combusting early in the exhaust system, where it couldn't before because the exhaust gas had no O2 left. That gets rid of some of it directly. Second, that extra combustion happens right before and also inside the catalytic converter, which then gets to operating temperature and starts doing its job much faster, cleaning up the remainder.

    Edit: I think it's actually three ways... the catalytic converters actually need some O2 in the stream to do their magic, which is otherwise depleted when you're running full rich.

    SAI helps startup emissions a lot and has exactly zero impact on performance. I have no idea why people like to rip it out. I suspect they don't know either.

    Jason
    Last edited by jyoung8607; 08-14-2015 at 03:46 PM.

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  10. #17
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    DING DING DING

    That is also correct Jason......... excellent post.

    That is also why the second ( OXS ) oxygen sensor is superior for mixture control, because of the clarity the CAT gives to the sensor after the exothermic reaction.

    It is also why it is used by the ecu to detect EVAP/LDP tests for vapor changes in the shared bit in readiness in addition to trim changes priority.

    So why would a tuner delete the Amplitude test in the CAT and the rear OXS sensor?

    Answer is LAZYINESS ......They don't care about emissions requirements, running clean, or really a real mixture target being controlled clean.

    They would rather set the target to pre programmed map, and those tail pipes are covered with SOOT!
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  11. #18
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    Great words to know and why " tuners " I mean " hacks " which delete emissions devices or use the OBD2 port .......are going down!

    It's OVER for someone........

    http://www.epa.gov/obd/questions.htm

    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/im/obd/r01015.pdf


    Can the OBD system be repaired, deactivated, or modified?

    The rule of thumb when it comes to emissions-related vehicle repair is that any modification that changes the vehicle from a certified configuration to a non-certified configuration is considered tampering: this applies to both vehicle owners and repair facilities and is, therefore, a " Federal offense ". Replacing a catalyst with a straight pipe is one traditional example of tampering. Likewise, overriding the OBD system through the use of high-tech defeat devices or non-certified computer chips, for example, would also be considered tampering. The OBD system may, however, be repaired back to its original certified configuration with certified "performance chips" or appropriate aftermarket parts.



    Basis for Failure or Rejection of IM Readiness SMOG EPA Guideline to be used in conjunction with Final Rule of the Clean Air Act!

    Unless otherwise noted in this guidance, a vehicle should be failed for any of the
    following five reasons, with the exception of the last
    (for which the appropriate action is rejection):

    11


    1) It is a 1996 or newer vehicle and the data link connector (DLC) is missing, has

    been tampered
    12 with, or is otherwise inoperable. (Action: Failure)

    2) The MIL does not illuminate at all when the ignition key is turned to the KOEO

    position. The MIL should illuminate (on some vehicles, only for a brief period of
    time) when the ignition key is turned to the KOEO position. (Action: Failure)
    3) If the MIL illuminates continuously or flashes after the engine has been started,
    even if no fault codes are present, since this could indicate a serial data link
    11States should be aware that some vehicles have atypical OBD configurations, and should take steps to avoid unfairly
    penalizing motorists. For example, states may incorrectly suspect motorist tampering for those vehicles that are manufactured
    with the DLC in a hard-to-find location. EPA is working with manufacturers, operating OBD-I/M programs, and Weber State
    University to develop an online clearinghouse of OBD-related information useful to state I/M programs and other stakeholders,
    including all OBD-related Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) from the manufacturers and all relevant updates. See Appendices
    B through D for more information on vehicles with atypical OBD system issues.

    12
    Tampering is considered to be any modification of the vehicle that deviates from the certified configuration of the
    vehicle, particularly if such modification has the practical effect of making the vehicle untestable (by, for example, making the
    DLC inaccessible) or otherwise constitutes an attempt to evade the program
    (by, for example, using illegal aftermarket devices
    designed to circumvent the OBD computer or provide false results during an OBD-I/M check).
    Under this definition, moving a
    DLC as part of collision repairs would not necessarily constitute tampering -- provided the DLC was not hidden or rendered
    otherwise inaccessible as a result of being moved.

    failure.
    13 (Action: Failure)

    4) Any DTCs are present and the MIL status, as indicated by the scan tool, is
    commanded on, regardless of whether or not the MIL is actually illuminated.
    Do not fail the vehicle if DTCs are present and the MIL status, as indicated by
    the scan tool, is off, because such non-MIL-triggering DTCs are considered
    “pending” and frequently self clear without requiring repair of the vehicle. MIL
    command status must be determined with the engine running. (Action: Failure)
    5) The number of OBD system monitors showing a “not ready” status exceeds the
    number allowed for the model year in question. (Action: Rejection)

    14



    Table 1 below lists the possible test outcomes in tabular form.

    Table 1 – Possible OBD-I/M Outcomes
    Vehicle Passes If: * Bulb check OK and
    * MIL not lit while engine running and
    * MIL not commanded on for any DTCs and
    * All required readiness codes are set
    Vehicle Fails If: * Bulb check not OK and/or
    * MIL lit while engine running and/or
    * MIL commanded on for any DTC and/or
    * DLC missing, tampered, or inoperable
    Vehicle Rejected If: * More unset readiness codes found than allowed based on MY and/or
    * DLC cannot be located or is inaccessible

    13
    States should be aware that some vehicles will illuminate a MIL when a scan tool is connected and the vehicle is still
    in the “key on, engine off” condition. In some cases, the scan tool will indicate that the MIL is, in fact, commanded on -- even
    though no DTCs may be present. EPA has found that these vehicles will usually extinguish the MIL and remove the “MIL
    commanded on” indicator when the engine is started. To avoid falsely failing vehicles, therefore, it is important that the
    electronic portion of the OBD-I/M check be conducted only with the vehicle in the “key on, engine running” condition (as
    indicated in the test procedure described above).
    14
    Although earlier requirements stipulated that OBD-equipped vehicles be rejected from further testing if any monitor
    was “not ready,” EPA has revised these readiness criteria to allow states to not reject MY 1996-2000 vehicles with two or fewer
    unset readiness codes, or MY 2001 and newer vehicles with no more than one unset readiness code. The complete MIL check
    and scan should still be run in all cases, however, and the vehicle should still be failed if one or more DTCs are set and the MIL
    is commanded on. The vehicle should also continue to be rejected if the OBD computer does not set readiness codes for 3 or
    more monitors on MY 1996-2000 vehicles, or two or more monitors on MY 2001 and newer vehicles. Readiness codes in
    general, and the specific codes and conditions covered by the April 5, 2001 amendments will be discussed in more detail under a
    separate section of this guidance.



    http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production...y-policy_0.pdf

    The fines for each occurrence are staggering!

    Think! ......Attention tuning dealers of any tuner, that engage in these type of modifications for the public streets.

    Ponder this?
    What would happen if a simple log file could be used to determine how many cars you programmed from your own equipment, and then be used to show your egregious act?

    If a Gross of $2,000,000 taken in allegedly / ( Est. Flashes @ $250 a flash ) = 8,000 flashes x2 to average the two fines added together = 16,000 x $28,000 per Est. Violation = $448,000,000
    That's a pretty expensive penalty!


    Violations of the emission control tampering prohibition under Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act, 42 U.S.C.
    5 7522(a)(3)(A); and Violations of the emission control defeat device prohibition under Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Act, 42 U.S.C.
    5 7522(a)(3)(B). Under Section 205(a) of the Act, 42 U.S.C.
    8 7524(a), the maximum penalty for violations of the vehicle and engine requirements under Title I1 of the Act is $25,000 per vehicle or engine, with two exceptions. The maximum penalty for violations of the tampering prohibition when committed by any person other than a manufacturer is $2,500 per vehicle, and the maximum penalty for violations of the defeat device prohibition is $2,500 per device. These maximum penalty amounts were increased from $25,000 to $32,500 and from $2,500 to $2,750 for violations occurring after March 15,2004, through January 12,2009, and to $37,500 and $3,750 for violations occurring thereafter (see Civil Monetarv Penalty Inflation Ad-iustment m, 69 Fed. Reg. 7 12 1 (Feb. 13,2004) and Civil Monetarv Penalty Inflation Adiustment Rule, 73 Fed. Reg. 75340 (Dec. 11,2008)). Section 205(b) of the Act, 42 U.S.C.
    9 7524(b) provides the factors that a court should take into account when determining the amount of any penalty in a judicial action under Title I1 of the Act: In determining the amount of any civil penalty to be assessed [in a civil judicial action] the court shall take into account the gravity of the violation, the economic benefit or savings (if any) resulting from the violation, the size of the violator's business, the violator's history of compliance with [Title I1 of the Act], action taken to remedy the violation, the effect of the penalty on the violator's ability to continue in business, and such other matters as justice may require. Section 205(c)(2) specifies that these same factors should be taken into account in an administrative penalty assessment for violation of requirements under Title I1 of the Act. Section 205(c)(l) of the Act specifies that, in lieu of referring a case to the Department of Justice to commence a civil action in district court, EPA may enforce the violation through an administrative penalty assessment, provided the penalty amount is less than $200,000, unless EPA and the Department of Justice agree that a matter with a larger penalty is appropriate for administrative penalty assessment. This penalty cap on administrative actions was increased to $295,000 under the 2008 Civil Monetary Penalty Inflation Adjustment Rule.
    Whistle while you work............... or blow it right up!

    Last edited by Jack@European_Parts; 08-18-2015 at 07:04 PM.
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  13. #19
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    We are in a glitch sequence because DOT NET CODE SUX ..........An ACT of WAR!



    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

  14. #20
    NostraJackAss Jack@European_Parts's Avatar
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    It seems the backup system has kicked in.........only these codes will be launched.

    You might call it a Manic Uber response being added to the mix.



    European Parts Emporium/Performance / Immobilizer Solutions EPE
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    Getting you CONTROL again of your property - TAKE IT! In Conjunction with.........

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