2009 Audi Q7 TDI TPMS Either fix or disable

   #21  

tuningbyamg

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After more digging:
-measured if i have voltage at R96 antenna plug, found voltage there 11.8
-Swapped out antennas old vs new, code then chages to no signal/communication.
-with replacement antenna, i scroll to messuring blocks field "last reported sensor id" and i can see each individual wheel reporting with the correct pressure and all.
Code that stil lingers and causes MIL is still the R96 no basic setting/adaptation
Is the Audi dealer the only way out? Would they be able to login this tpms module and code it correctly? Or am i dreaming in colors?
 
   #22  

Uwe

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Code that stil lingers and causes MIL is still the R96 no basic setting/adaptation
Is the Audi dealer the only way out?
Unless someone can find a procedure for you, I haven't got any better ideas.

Would they be able to login this tpms module and code it correctly?
I would expect so. I'm pretty confident their tool won't do anything that can't be done with VCDS on this module; the catch is knowing what to do. Unfortunately, those procedures are all scripted and hidden from the user with ODIS.

-Uwe-
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Are antenna adaptions on the pull down menu in 0x65-10-pull down or if you start a calibration setting does it auto marry?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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I would expect so. I'm pretty confident their tool won't do anything that can't be done with VCDS on this module; the catch is knowing what to do. Unfortunately, those procedures are all scripted and hidden from the user with ODIS.

-Uwe-

Time to put in a request to disseminate safety related data for aftermarket scan tools as per the NHTSA..........
 
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Uwe

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Are antenna adaptions on the pull down menu in 0x65-10-pull down
Nope, we don't have anything documented for Adaptations or Basic Settings on that module.

-Uwe-

PS: This almost makes me wish it was a UDS module.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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https://one.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/tpmsfinalrule.6/tpmsfinalrule.6.html

  • SEMA's recommendations sought to ensure that manufacturers develop transparent and minimally burdensome processes for TPMS maintenance and repair. Specifically, SEMA commented that vehicle manufacturers should be required to comply with applicable Society of Automotive Engineers and European Union (EU) standards governing the design of wheel mounting pockets in order to facilitate transferal of sensors from the OE tires/wheels to replacement tires/wheels (no references provided). SEMA stated that communications protocols should be standardized so as to facilitate the use of aftermarket sensors, and that recalibration processes should be straightforward. SEMA also recommended that manufacturers should be prohibited from requiring special tools for TPMS reprogramming or utilizing encrypted systems that would prevent installation of aftermarket products.
    According to SEMA, if these changes are not adopted, the potential result would be to restrict aftermarket manufacturers from offering a full range of wheel and tire combinations to consumers, leaving such manufacturers with an unenviable choice between not selling these aftermarket products or accepting the associated product liability exposure.
    In contrast, VW/Audi stated that the test procedures in the final rule should recognize that some malfunctions may require action on the part of the dealer in order to extinguish the TPMS MIL.
    In the NPRM, the agency's rationale for its tentative conclusion that the proposal would not have a significant economic impact upon a substantial number of small entities was based upon several considerations. First, the agency understands that there are currently only four small motor vehicle manufacturers in the U.S. that would have to comply with the standard and that those manufacturers would rely on TPMS suppliers to provide the requisite system hardware to be integrated into their vehicles. There are a few small manufacturers of recreational vehicles, but the agency expressed its belief that most of these manufacturers could use the TPMSs supplied with the van chassis supplied by other large vehicle manufacturers and rely upon the chassis manufacturer's incomplete vehicle certification. We believe that the circumstances for these entities remain essentially unchanged.
    In the NPRM, the agency also sought to eliminate the concerns of small businesses that make and sell custom wheels and aftermarket rims by proposing to exempt spare tires and aftermarket rims (that do not match the original equipment rims) from the requirements of the standard on a practicability basis.
    For the following reasons, we continue to believe that the requirements of the standard, as contained in this final rule, will not have a significant economic impact upon a substantial number of small entities.


Just like throttle valves when beetle got nabbed by EPA ..........if it doesn't auto-marry and requires a tool the manufacture must disseminate.......


http://www.tirereview.com/tpms-nhtsa-and-you/
[h=1]TPMS, NHTSA and You[/h]
49 USC 30122(b). That’s the “Make Inoperative” provision of the Motor Vehicle Safety Act. It states that, "A manufacturer, distributor, dealer, or motor vehicle repair business may not knowingly make inoperative any part of a device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment in compliance with an applicable motor vehicle safety standard prescribed under this chapter…” Violators of the provision are liable for a civil penalty of up to $6,000 for each violation, with a maximum penalty of $17.35 million. With a “M.”
Having spoken to a number of tire dealer employees, from service managers to CEOs, I often ask them what they are and aren’t allowed to do with regard to TPMS sensors. Far too often I hear some version of what an owner of one large chain of tire stores told me: “The only thing we are not allowed to do is dismantle or disconnect the sensor capability of the car.”
119473tpmscorro_00000069247.jpg


While that has been considered a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the provision in the past, it unfortunately turns out to be nowhere near how NHTSA actually interprets that rule. We know this because two years ago NHTSA responded to a very specific written request from TIA requesting clarification on four commonly encountered TPMS scenarios. For some tire dealers, the answers were sometimes surprising.
For instance, if a customer has an extra set of wheels to be installed and refuses to either purchase another set of TPMS sensors or move the existing OE sensors over to the new wheels, the shop cannot install the wheels.
According to NHTSA, "a service provider would violate the ‘make inoperative’ prohibition of 49 USC 30122(b) by installing new tires and wheels that do not have a functioning TPMS system. To avoid a ‘make inoperative’ violation, the tire dealer would need to decline to install the new tires and wheels, use the TPMS sensors from the original wheels (if they are compatible), or convince the motorist to purchase new TPMS sensors and ensure that the sensors are properly integrated with the vehicle’s TPMS system."
Roy Littlefield, TIA executive vice president, said, "We are admittedly surprised by NHTSA’s response that aftermarket tires and wheels must include TPMS sensors. Based on the language in the April 2005 Final Rule, we believed that the presence of the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) would notify the driver that the TPMS was not operable as a result of their decision to decline new sensors…”


The language Littlefield referenced in the NHTSA’s Final Rule says:
“We (NHTSA) do not believe it is appropriate to permit disablement of the MIL when aftermarket tires and wheels are installed on the vehicle that are not compatible with the continued proper functioning of the TPMS. In such cases, the TPMS MIL is performing its intended function. We believe that the MIL should continue to operate when tires and wheels that are incompatible with the TPMS are mounted on the vehicle, not only to discourage such actions, but also to provide an ongoing reminder that the TPMS is unavailable to provide low tire pressure warnings.”

Given that TIA has been going on this assumption for six years now, it’s certainly reasonable to say that this clarification was surprising, and it’s no stretch to see why so many dealers still think that disconnecting the MIL is the only thing they can’t do.
But it turns out that what NHTSA meant to say was this: “Owners can put wheels without sensors on their car, and the MIL should stay on to warn them that the TPMS is nonfunctional. But shops can’t help!”

Compiling ith the Law
Having worked as in a tire shop myself, I will be blunt here. The regulations below about damaged sensors are annoying and mildly burdensome. This one hurts. If you are complying with this regulation, there will always be customers who will avoid paying the cost of four new sensors by going somewhere else. Some will find a shop that doesn’t know about the regulations. Some will find a shop that will mount and balance the tires separately and let them install the set at home. Some will find tire stores that simply don’t care what the rules are.

The only thing I can advise is to remember that the customer is under no legal responsibility to NHTSA or anyone on this issue. You are the only one that can be fined for installing a set of wheels and tires without sensors. They can’t.
If your dealership performs a service and turns over the car to the customer, but the TPMS MIL comes on after the customer has left, the shop has not violated the “make inoperative” provision. According to NHTSA, "The mere illumination of the malfunction indicator lamp after the vehicle has been released by a motor vehicle repair business to the driver would not itself be a violation of the ‘make inoperative’ provision." By implication, the dealer is responsible for making sure the system is reset and the light is off before the vehicle can be released.
If a customer comes in with an already malfunctioning sensor that cannot be immediately replaced, the shop can temporarily replace it with a snap-in valve stem and return the car to service. According to NHTSA, “a motor vehicle repair business would not be violating 49 USC 30122(b) by removing an inoperative or damaged TPMS sensor and replacing it with a standard snap-in rubber valve stem.”
But on the other hand…If the shop “inadvertently” breaks a TPMS sensor and cannot immediately find a replacement, the shop cannot temporarily replace the TPMS sensor valve stem with a rubber stem and return the car to service. The vehicle must be held until the sensor can be replaced.

NHTSA says, "as a general matter, a violation of the ‘make inoperative’ prohibition does not occur until a repair business allows or intends a vehicle to be returned to use…this would be true regardless of whether arrangements have been made for future repair." (Emphasis ours)
So if the sensor is already broken when it comes into the shop, or if the battery stopped working last week and the customer doesn’t want to pay for a replacement, or if a replacement is not immediately available, the tire dealer can legally put in a rubber valve stem and release the car.
If a tire tech breaks one, it must be replaced or the car can’t be given back. This can lead to some unfortunate customer service outcomes if not handled properly.
Therefore it is critical that you verify that the TPMS system and all sensors are working properly and document that fact before you do anything else to the tires or wheels. You need to know whether everything is working to know how to properly comply with the law – and you will need to be able to prove that you did so.
Impact of Corrosion
TIA senior vice president of training Kevin Rohlwing said at the time, "This is exactly why our training programs have always stressed the importance of checking the status of the TPMS prior to service. If a valve stem sensor is not functioning prior to servicing the tires and wheels, then the retailer cannot violate the ‘make inoperative’ provision because the system was already inoperative."

This process is certainly made much easier by the new generation of sensor scan tools that can save and print the required documentation of sensor status. Most new scan tools allow for data updates via PC, hopefully making them the last scan tool you will ever have to buy.
Since the TPMS system must be reset before the car is released, and many systems still require a direct OBDII interface for a sensor reset; that capability is a necessity for any tech that does not already have it. Several of the better scan tools also include an OBDII interface for an all-in-one solution that makes dealing with the wide variety of reset procedures less of a headache.
There is also, as Rohlwing put it, “some debate over the circumstances related to inadvertent damage.” This turn of phrase neatly describes the dimensions of the elephant in the room – corrosion.
Here are my own open questions for NHTSA: What if a one-piece TPMS valve stem becomes corroded beyond repair, and the installer cannot remove the sensor for service without breaking the stem or destroying the threads, requiring replacement of the sensor? Does that constitute “inadvertent breakage” or is it “removing an inoperative or damaged” sensor?
I would argue that there can be little doubt that corrosion is damage that has occurred before the vehicle arrived in the shop. I would argue that if a sensor cannot reasonably be removed without causing critical damage, it should be considered “inoperative” even if the transmitter still works.
I would argue that if the effect of a universally known corrosion problem in TPMS sensors causes a sensor stem to break, this can hardly be considered “inadvertent damage” on the shop’s part.
There is real inadvertent damage, of course. It seems like every tire tech should know by now not to put the mounting shovel next to the valve stem, but there’s always that one daydreamer who does it anyway and snaps off a sensor. In that case, I can see holding the shop responsible for making sure the sensor gets replaced. I suspect that most shops simply replace it for free anyway, just for the customer relationship win.
But I think there are still some issues that could be further clarified here, and I suspect a lot of shops would really like to hear what NHTSA has to say about corrosion-related damage.

What say you, TIA? Time for another letter?

[h=1][/h]
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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OP

Have a look in adaption channels and see if you can change a gain on an antenna by measuring voltage and documenting a channel correlated to the respective antenna in test mode.
 
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tuningbyamg

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@Jack
I did see something relating to antenna channels with the Maaxis scanner but it requested a module log in to even touch it. As far as adaptation channels i havent done a deep dive to see if anything is changeable on channels say past 10. Nothing documented either in dropdowns.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Yeah Uwe said that.........

That is why I would experiment and see if I could tweak a channel "before saving anything" and change the output to the antenna by watching with a meter during the test function or if I could find a test initialization channel.

By all rights the antenna should when replaced, auto-adapt and not need such a function with a security login.

It is something that should probably be reported to NHTSA.
 
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   #30  

Jack@European_Parts

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ANY FOD..................?

What part # antenna did you install sir?

What size wheels do we have and what are each TPMS sensor part #?



FLAG 0x65 antenna - 38127301239

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: 4F0-910-273-BA.lbl
Part No SW: 4F0 910 273 B HW: 4F0 907 273 A
Component: Reifendruck 3 H05 0100
Revision: 00050100 Serial number: 00000900082302
Coding: 0062424
Shop #: WSC 45056 347 116111
VCID: 224BC548FD606A56BC-8076

2 Faults Found:
01521 - Sensor for Tire Pressure
004 - No Signal/Communication - MIL ON
01833 - Antenna for Tire Pressure Monitoring; Rear (R96)
005 - No or Incorrect Basic Setting / Adaptation - MIL ON

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




01833 - Antenna for Tire Pressure Monitoring; Rear (R96)

01833 - Antenna for Tire Pressure Monitoring; Rear (R96): No or Incorrect Basic Setting / Adaptation

Possible Symptoms


  • Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) active
Possible Causes


  • Control Module Coding incorrect
  • Incorrect Antenna for Tire Pressure Monitoring; Rear (R96) installed (Frequency incompatible)
Possible Solutions


  • Check Control Module Coding, Country Setting might be wrong
  • Install correct Antenna for Tire Pressure Monitoring; Rear (R96)
 
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   #31  

tuningbyamg

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Antenna is from porsche, beru 433mhz same size, layout part number differs but its because its a porsche one.
Pn on it is 997.606.101.00
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Well you may have the wrong one .........they are specific.
 
   #33  

tuningbyamg

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Took apart the original antenna, well water has had its work in it, circuit board components "brushed" off. So i know the original culprit is the antenna. Now i will try one with the correct part number but this is ridiculous...
 
   #34  

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I don't have an actual Basic Setting or Adaptation contribution to the No or Incorrect Basic Setting / Adaptation (I don't think those functions are supported at all in the 65 type) but the incorrect antenna

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/01833

.. sounds like a great place to start. The original defective one couldn't have been helping the cause and the used (non VW/Audi) part prob isn't compatible.

If that's a LIN antenna like the 4F A6 and 8E/8H A4 make sure it is mounted (facing) the proper direction when the replacement is installed. I'm not sure about the Q7 but the sedans has TSBs and the German word for front should be written on the forwards facing side.
 
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tuningbyamg

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Yeah the antenna is facing forwards and there is a holder that places it in one possible position only. Sourcing one this week and let's see what will happen.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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So lets stop rolling diagnostic dice with compounded FOD for parts and water ingress? :rolleyes:

Only hand these out to customers that want free answers I do.... ;)

094ba1d43b18b9d0d7ad3abf038e4334--great-inventions-dice.jpg
 
   #38  

tuningbyamg

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Boys this mystery is finally resolved. With all the talk around the antenna and part number i took the original one apart and guess what it took in salt water and it screwed up the circuit board so bad that components were blowing away, literally.
So knowing this is my culprit, i ordered up another antenna with the exact part number this time, came off a '13 Panamera this time but part number exactly matching. Put it on, cleared faults, selected "change wheels" in MMI and voilà pressures and sensors learned.
This also meant the Pressure monitoring reader was correct in identifying that the sensors on each wheel were transmitting.

Thanks to all that helped 😁🍾
 
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