What's the purpose of the Center O2 sensor?

   #1  

Geoffzie

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On the 2005 VW Jetta 2.5L I recently purchased ... it uses 3 Oxygen sensors, one in the exhaust manifold ... one in the CAT itself ... and one located after the CAT. Most cars, including my 2007 VW Passat, only have two O2 sensors.

What purpose does the center O2 sensor serve, located on the CAT?
 
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HMC

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Hi Geoffzie,
I am not familiar with US emission cars but suspect you are looking at the Exhaust Gas Temperature sensor.
Regards HMC
 
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Geoffzie

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The part looks like a normal O2 sensor ... So an O2 sensor can measure exhaust temperature? Would the center O2 sensor be involved in a P0420 (or P0430) Fault Code then?

I'm just trying to understand how the system works with a center O2 sensor. I know on most cars, the sensor in the exhaust manifold, nearest the engine, measures fuel / air ratio, and sends that signal to the ECU so that it might adjust the fuel mixture accordingly.

The rear O2 sensor measures the oxygen content AFTER the CAT to verify that the CAT is working. If it senses the same gas content AFTER the CAT ... as BEFORE the CAT ... it sets a P0420 or P0430 indicating the CAT is not working. At least that's my limited understanding.

So how does the Center O2 sensor play into that ... if at all?
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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On the 2005 VW Jetta 2.5L I recently purchased ... it uses 3 Oxygen sensors, one in the exhaust manifold ... one in the CAT itself ... and one located after the CAT. Most cars, including my 2007 VW Passat, only have two O2 sensors.

What purpose does the center O2 sensor serve, located on the CAT?


The part looks like a normal O2 sensor ... So an O2 sensor can measure exhaust temperature? Would the center O2 sensor be involved in a P0420 (or P0430) Fault Code then?

I'm just trying to understand how the system works with a center O2 sensor. I know on most cars, the sensor in the exhaust manifold, nearest the engine, measures fuel / air ratio, and sends that signal to the ECU so that it might adjust the fuel mixture accordingly.

The rear O2 sensor measures the oxygen content AFTER the CAT to verify that the CAT is working. If it senses the same gas content AFTER the CAT ... as BEFORE the CAT ... it sets a P0420 or P0430 indicating the CAT is not working. At least that's my limited understanding.

So how does the Center O2 sensor play into that ... if at all?


It is used as a method of monitoring the pre catalyst and secondary cat AECD's, in addition defines an SULEV and can be observed in VCDS 0x01-08-045>048 depending on banks. In this case just bank one.
Also could be a amplitude cross check across the bank to qualify a monitor or OEM part from what I've observed.
It is effectively a lower GHG vehicle, which carries a longer warranty for emissions useful life, under CARB/EPA/NHTSA for conformity unilaterally & while supposedly running cleaner as per the CAA usually with zero EVAP as a PZEV in comparison to ULEV or LEV.

A Google search of the acronyms should help more definement.
The RTFB will also have further explanation, as do the SSP's.
Answered from my smartass phone yay!
NostraJackAss Has Spoken!
 
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Hi Geoffzie,
I am not familiar with US emission cars but suspect you are looking at the Exhaust Gas Temperature sensor.
Regards HMC
I seriously doubt this relatively low-stressed, naturally aspirated engine has an actual EGT sensor.

-Uwe-
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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Oh and FYI the rear OXS is the most superior for mixture control, not the front & because the CAT's clean up the reading adding clarity, in addition how EVAP is determined in specification.
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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People may find this helpful...........

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9387/b0c5bbc612b97fb0b11e152fce088cc74762.pdf

Code:
Model Validation Validation of the three-way catalytic converter model is performed by comparing measured vehicle dynamometer emissions with simulated emissions during the cold transient phase of an FTP75 certification driving cycle. The vehicle chosen for this purpose is a Volkswagen Jetta equipped with the low-end torque Volkswagen 2.0L-2V-85 kW engine (165 Nm at 2600 rpm). A thorough revamp of the engine, its control, the gasoline supply and the exhaust system made this vehicle the first Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) of Volkswagen [178]. To ensure ultra-fast catalyst light-off the engine is started in rich mode ( [FONT=StandardSymL-Slant_167]l [/FONT]= 0.6 – 0.75) with secondary air being added into the manifold targeting for exhaust compositions of [FONT=StandardSymL-Slant_167]l [/FONT]= 1.05 – 1.25. air pump oxygen sensor (HEGO) oxygen sensor (HEGO) 2nd catalytic brick 1st catalytic brick temperature sensor (Pt200) oxygen sensor (UEGO) secondary air injection Figure 7.1: Schematic sketch of Bosch Motronic ME7.1.1 system architecture (source: Robert Bosch GmbH, GS/ESK) - incomplete. 92 UEGO (mounted to the exhaust manifold) HEGO (downstream 2nd brick) 3” x 4.66”, 900 cpsi, 2.5 mil 4.5” x 4.66”, 900 cpsi, 2.5 mil 200 g/ft 3, Pd:Rh = 14:1 100 g/ft3, Pd:Rh = 14:1 HEGO (mid brick) TC2 temperature sensor TC1 TC3 TC4 1st brick 2nd brick Figure 7.2: Volkswagen’s Jetta 2.0l-2V-85 kW SULEV compliant exhaust system equipped with thermocouples (TC1 - TC4). The air-gap insulated manifold acts during this phase as a so-called thermoreactor, completing the combustion process in a hot flame [178]. The temperature sensor located downstream in the takedown pipe checks for proper operation of thermoreactor and secondary air pump (figure 7.1). Since the SULEV emission thresholds (figure 1.1) have to be fulfilled for mileages of 150 thousand miles without further facilitation, the catalytic converter system is located in the underfloor position to avoid severe aging conditions under full load operation. The system contains two bricks of the same diameter. The first brick is shorter and has twice the precious metal loading of the second brick (figure 7.2). There is one oxygen sensor with step characteristic mounted between the two bricks and another one behind the second brick. Modal measurements of the raw gas entering the catalytic converter system and of the gas behind the first brick are performed at 1 Hz by means of Fourier-Transformation- Infrared-Spectrometry (FTIR) with Volkswagen’s System for Emission Sampling And Measurement (SESAM) [8]. Accumulated mass of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides behind the first brick during the cold transient phase ( t = 0. . .507 s) of the FTP75 test procedure are shown in figure 7.3. During cold start – which only needs a couple of seconds for this application – a major fraction of total carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons is emitted. After light-off, the temperatures are high enough for complete combustion under lean conditions. Hydrocarbons are even converted under rich conditions: only a slight and almost constant increase in hydrocarbon mass is registered after the first brick – emphasizing the importance of converter light-off on hydrocarbon emissions. The emissions of carbon monoxide and nitrogen monoxide after the first brick are substantial. Especially nitrogen oxide emissions are significant between t = 180. . .300 s and thus due to warmed-up catalyst performance. In general, NO x control strategies focus on closed-loop, stabilized engine operation [174]. 93 0 60 120 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 1 2 3 4 m CO, mNOx [g] 0.00 0.01 0.02 0.03 0.04 0.05 0.06 0.07 0.08 m C3Hx [g] 20 40 60 80 100 v [km/h] C 3Hx CO NO x Figure 7.3: Measured accumulated carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide and hydrocarbon mass behind first brick during the cold transient phase of the FTP75 driving cycle. The stoichiometry of the catalyst inlet emissions are crucial for three-way catalytic emission control and thus for a sound description of the catalyst behavior modeled in this work (see chapter 4). It is evident from figures 2.2 and 2.3 that the dynamic response of the oxygen concentration signal is significantly slower than the dynamic response of the polar species measured by FTIR technique. The dynamics of all analyzed emission components are damped compared to the relative air to fuel ratio signal provided by the linear oxygen sensor. Thus the oxygen concentration in the feed is calculated from equation 2.17 based on the linear oxygen sensor (UEGO) signal which exhibits a much better dynamic response to changes in gas phase composition (figure 7.4) 1. The hydrogen concentration is assumed to be one third of the carbon monoxide concentration (see chapter 3). With the calculated oxygen concentrations the resulting set of engine out emissions still underestimates the dynamics in engine out hydrogen, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions but obeys the fast dynamics of the measured relative air to fuel ratio. 1 The relative air to fuel ratio signal is obtained from an extra Bosch LSU sensor not connected to the engine control unit. This sensor is powered up well in advance to cranking the engine – thus providing sound readings from the very first second. The obvious offset of the measured oxygen concentration (not used in this work) is probably caused by a leakage in the vehicle roll exhaust sample piping. 94 0 60 120 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 0.0 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 y O2 [%] calculated measured 20 40 60 80 100 v [km/h] Figure 7.4: Converter inlet oxygen concentrations calculated from equation 2.17 based on the linear oxygen sensor (UEGO) signal compared with the respective oxygen concentration measured by means of a paramagnetic oxygen analyzer. 7.1 Thermal Behavior Feed temperature estimates Even though temperature readings of thermocouples placed within the tube in front of the first brick are available (thermocouple TC2 in figure 7.2), simulations based on these values result in way too low catalyst bed temperatures: due to radiative heat losses temperature sensors positioned within a hot gas phase surrounded by colder walls do have lower body temperatures (and thus provide lower readings) compared to the gas phase they are positioned in [112, 121]. Thus a feed gas temperature estimate believed to be more realistic is obtained by ”interpolation” of the erroneous reading in front of the catalyst (TC2) and a hotter – also erroneous – reading even further upstream (TC1 in figure 7.2). The empirical formula T g,in 0.3TTC1+0.7TTC2 yields reasonable feed temperature values for the first brick. This can be seen in the following, where start-up measurements of the FTP75 cycle of figure 2.2 are compared to simulations (figure 7.5). Heat of reaction for oxygen storage and release In order to check the influence of the heat of reaction of oxygen storage and release, several simulation results are compared with temperatures measured at two positions within the first brick. A quite good description of the temperature progression with time at different positions within the catalyst is obtained with the model described in chapter 4 and the parameters obtained 95 in chapter 5 and 6 2. The heat of oxygen storage is varied between a value of -760 (equivalent to the heat of reaction 3.14), a value of -200 kJ/(mol O 2) and zero. 25 50 75 100 v [km/h] 200 400 600 800 T [ oC] D hR,os = -760 kJ/(mol O2) 200 400 600 800 T [ oC] D hR,os = -200 kJ/(mol O2) 0 60 120 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 200 400 600 800 T [ oC] D hR,os = 0 kJ/(mol O2) x = 15mm (measured) x = 15mm (simulated) x = 60mm (measured) x = 60mm (simulated) Figure 7.5: Measured and simulated temperatures within the first brick, assuming different values of the enthalpy DhR,os of oxygen storage reaction. The value of -200 (close to the value of -220 kJ/(mol O 2) associated with palladium oxidation) has been reported for calorimetric properties of ceria and ceria-zirconia based palladium three-way catalysts [180]. The literature value of -200 kJ/(mol O 2) provides the best description of the thermal behavior under warmed-up conditions. 2 Since the precious metal loading in the first brick is twice the loading of the catalyst the kinetic parameters are obtained for, all kinetic rate constants are assumed to be twice as high. 96 With both a higher and a lower heat of oxygen storage and release significant deviations between measured and simulated temperatures arise – especially during deceleration associated with fuel cut and subsequent rich purges (figure 7.5, 120 s < t < 360 s). 7.2 Cold Start Conversion Due to the thermoreactor cold start strategy the first brick experiences temperatures in excess of 700 C within a couple of seconds after cranking the engine (figure 7.5). The critical cold start phase is passed within less than 20 s just before the first road load is put on the engine. Figure 7.6 allows a comparison of measured and simulated combustible species concentrations during this phase. 0 5 10 15 t C 3H8 CO 0 5 10 15 20 t 100 200 300 400 500 y C3Hx [ppm] C 3H6 engine out measured mid brick measured mid brick simulated 0.0 0.5 1.0 1.5 2.0 2.5 y H2 , y CO [%] H 2 Figure 7.6: Measured and simulated hydrogen, carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions after the first brick (”mid brick”) during cold start. Hydrocarbons are mainly emitted during the very first seconds of the driving cycle and to a lesser degree during the corresponding seconds of the hot transient phase. More than 10 different hydrocarbon species are measured by SESAM. They are grouped into a fraction with relatively low catalytic ignition temperature represented by propene and another fraction with relatively high catalytic ignition temperature represented by propane. 97 During light-off propene shows a similar behavior as carbon monoxide with full conversion after approximately 8 s. Propane light-off is somewhat delayed with full conversion after 10 s. The evident time shift between simulated and measured peak hydrocarbon emissions is due to the catalyst’s ability to store hydrocarbons in an intermediate temperature range – a phenomenon not covered by the mathematical model. As can be seen, hydrocarbon storage has no substantial influence on total hydrocarbon emissions as long as hydrocarbon desorption occurs well in advance of catalyst light-off. 7.3 Transient Phase Conversion During light-off the rates of catalytic combustion are limited by the low temperature. In the hot catalyst under rich feed conditions after removal of residual oxygen, combustion rates are limited by the rate of oxygen release from the oxygen storage. Under lean feed conditions the conversion of nitrogen oxide to nitrogen is limited by the rate of oxygen uptake. 0 60 120 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 0.950 0.975 1.000 1.025 1.050 lambda [-] post 1st brick (simulation) 25 50 75 100 v [km/h] 0.900 0.925 0.950 0.975 1.000 1.025 1.050 lambda [-] engine out (measurement) Figure 7.7: Relative Air to Fuel ratio across the first brick. If oxygen uptake and release were high enough all deviations from stoichiometric composition would be buffered, resulting in a steady [FONT=StandardSymL-Slant_167]l [/FONT]= 1 signal behind the catalyst. The simulated exhaust composition after the first brick shows this behavior during idling 98 with low load after the first cruising period (around t 150 s). Higher load operation is accompanied with lean and rich breakthroughs (figure 7.7). Significant nitrogen oxide breakthrough occurs during the following high speed operation between second 200 and 300 (figure 7.3). It is evident from the time resolved traces in figure 7.8 that these emissions are due to isolated peaks. While overall conversion is well in excess of 80%, oxygen storage during lean engine operation seems to be not sufficiently high to buffer all the oxygen – hindering complete nitrogen oxide reduction. During acceleration with high engine load the first brick emits significant amounts of carbon monoxide under rich conditions. The accumulated mass of carbon monoxide shows a pronounced increase around t 350 s (figure 7.3). These few seconds add approximately 20% to the mass accumulated during the cold transient phase. An explanation will be given by considering the (simulated) change of stored oxygen. It can be seen from the measured pre-first brick gas composition and the calculated post-first brick gas composition (figure 7.7) that the average engine exhaust is slightly rich. The exhaust composition is controlled such that the oxygen sensor’s voltage behind the second brick is always 600-650 mV to ensure further high conversion of nitrogen monoxide in the second brick [178]. With the catalyst storage being initially completely oxidized due to lean cold start with secondary air injection, the slightly rich operation afterwards results in an average decrease of the stored oxygen (figure 7.10). During the second hill ( t 150. . .300 s) an average oxidation extend of roughly 35% is maintained providing high oxygen uptake rates at still good oxygen release rates. During deceleration with fuel cut ( t 320 s) the storage material is rapidly oxidized. During the following rich purge ( t 320. . .350 s) oxygen is released from the storage until the storage is virtually empty. At t = 350 s the engine accelerates the vehicle with rich combustion and relatively high load. The carbon monoxide conversion now suffers from a completely reduced storage material, unable to compensate oxygen shortage in the feed. This explains the strong carbon monoxide increase at about 350 s (figures 7.3 and 7.9). After coldstart the measured hydrocarbon conversion is almost complete (figures 7.3 and 7.11). Using the kinetic data for steam reforming and water gas shift reaction determined separately in section 5.4.2 and given in table 5.1, the simulated propane conversion would have been too low. In other words: measured hydrocarbon conversion under transient rich conditions with the Volkswagen Jetta 2.0l SULEV development application is much better than the one predicted by simulation based on kinetic data retrieved from steady state experiments. It is evident from data discussed in chapter 8 and appendix C that these differences most likely arise from sulfur poisoning: Kinetic measurements discussed in chapter 5 are performed with an exhaust sulfur content of y SO2 = 14 ppm, while the certification driving cycle measurements discussed here are performed with a much lower sulfur level. Furthermore in the presence of sulfur the catalyst transforms into a less active state during prolonged steady state rich operation. During real engine operation the catalyst is subjected to rich conditions no longer than 40 sec (see figure 7.7). Sulfur blocking the catalyst’s active sites as e.g. hydrogen 99 500 1000 1500 y NO [ppm] post 1st brick (measurement) 25 50 75 100 v [km/h] 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 y NO + [ppm] engine out (measurement) 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 500 1000 1500 y NO [ppm] post 1st brick (simulation) Figure 7.8: Comparison of measured nitrogen monoxide emissions in front and behind the first brick with simulated emissions behind the first brick. 100 0.5 1.0 y CO [ppm] 25 50 75 100 v [km/h] 0.5 1.0 1.5 2.0 y CO + [ppm] 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 0.5 1.0 y CO [ppm] engine out (measurement) post 1st brick (measurement) post 1st brick (simulation) Figure 7.9: Comparison of measured carbon monoxide emissions in front and behind the first brick with simulated emissions behind the first brick. 101 0 60 120 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 0.00 0.25 0.50 0.75 1.00 X OSC [-] Figure 7.10: Simulated averaged oxidation extent of the storage material. sulfide are swept away in the subsequent lean phase. Therefore propane conversion was calculated with the same rate parameters as propene in figure 7.11. Nevertheless some break-through of hydrocarbons is simulated during the rich acceleration at about 350 s. 7.4 Discussion With model parameters and properties obtained from the suppliers (e.g. substrate cell density and wall thickness, washcoat loading, precious metal loading), from literature (e.g. heat capacities, transfer coefficients, oxygen diffusivity within oxygen storage) and kinetic and capacity data from isothermal measurements performed on a sample with half the precious metal loading and a 25 % lower specific geometric surface area the behavior of a full size catalytic converter operated under highly transient thermal and stoichiometric conditions can be described reasonably well. This is in particular remarkable since one single set of species conversion kinetic parameters obtained from both fuel lean (oxygen saturated catalyst) and fuel rich (oxygen depleted catalyst) conditions (table 5.1) is applied. During Volkswagen Jetta 2.0l SULEV FTP drive cycle simulation however the catalyst does change between periods of oxygen release and oxygen uptake. Hence the oxygen storage is usually not completely filled or completely empty but somewhere inbetween (0 x 1, see figure 7.10). While the independently parameterized model provides a good description of the cold start behavior and the thermal behavior throughout the cold transient FTP cycle quantitative differences between measurement and simulation are evident from a comparison of transient carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide emissions on a peak to peak basis (figure 7.9 and 7.8). With the significantly higher sulfur content applied throughout all kinetic measurements, the scale up by more than two orders of magnitude, poor time resolved emission analysis, lack of hydrogen concentration analysis and a questionable flow distribution within the first brick (see inlet cone geometry figure 7.2) the degree of carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide conversion prediction is believed to be remarkably good. Drive cycle simulations with similar models reported in literature provide roughly the same accuracy [126, 146, 4]. 102 500 1000 y C3Hx [ppm] 25 50 75 100 v [km/h] 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 y C3Hx + [ppm] 180 240 300 360 420 480 t 500 1000 y C3Hx [ppm] engine out (measurement) post 1st brick (measurement) post 1st brick (simulation) Figure 7.11: Comparison of measured hydrocarbon emissions in front and behind the first brick with simulated emissions behind the first brick. After coldstart engine out hydrocarbons are assumed to be propene only. 103 The simulations underestimate the warmed-up propane conversion under rich conditions compared to the measured – almost complete – alkane conversion. Similar shortcomings in predicting transient improved hydrocarbon conversion under rich conditions are reported in literature [166]. Steady state experiments with a rich bias to mean air to fuel ratio (e.g. [FONT=StandardSymL-Slant_167]l [/FONT]=0.98 ±0.01, f =1 Hz) carried out in this work (section 5.4.2) maintain the catalyst in an oxygen depleted state over its full length. With the Volkswagen Jetta 2.0l SULEV application described before the oxygen storage is controlled at an intermediate oxidation state during transient operation by applying low frequency oxidation and reduction cycles with reasonable amplitude. It has been reported that the overall conversion of a three-way catalytic converter system can be enhanced by prolonged rich/lean phases as long as full system break through is avoided (e.g. [90, 111]). Further experiments towards the understanding of this transient improved rich conversion phenomenon are discussed in chapter 8 and appendix C.
 
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   #8  

Geoffzie

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Here's the reason I asked.

On several cars (both VW and Toyota) that had P0420 or P0430 fault codes, I've spliced a Radio Shack p/n 276-1141 3-Amp 50V Barrel Diode into the return signal line of the rear O2 sensor going back to the ECU. It fools the ECU into thinking the CAT is working good ... because the ECU is looking for a reduced voltage return signal. Hence, no check engine light. This assumes that your problem isn't a clogged CAT, and that the CAT is still in good physical condition with no external damage.

I did this on my "Passetta" and it works fine ... and eliminates the P0420 Fault Code. And it's MUCH cheaper than a new CAT!

Here's the write-up I found on an Audi site that explains the process ...

Code:
The rear oxygen sensor is a 4-wire heated unit. There are two Black, a White & Grey wire. They are:

Grey: reference signal from ECU
Black: output signal going to ECU
2 White wires: 12v heater element power & ground

I slid back the rubber boot and cut the BLACK wire. This is the O2 sensor (+) output. GREY is reference voltage, and both WHITES are the heater circuit. 
Cut the BLACK wire, crimp in the diode with the silver bar facing the ECU side (towards the connector).

So ... I asked the question concerning the 2005 Jetta 2.5 with a P0420 Code, since it has the center O2 Sensor (none of the other cars I've done this to had a center O2 sensor). I simply wanted to know what relevance the center O2 sensor had on the "CAT - Checking" process.

Although, after looking at it closer today, I may have to just replace the CAT ... it does seem to be "rattling" too (172,000 miles). So my question may be academic.
 
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Geoffzie

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What do these numbers tell me?

Ok, what do these Advanced Measuring Values numbers tell me about the CAT (other than it's not working properly)? All three O2 sensors were replaced by the previous owner. What SHOULD the voltages be for Sensors 1, 2, and 3?

What's strange is, Bentley's doesn't show a 2005 2.5L Jetta with the BGQ engine ... with three o2 sensors?!

The first scan shows the P0420 fault code ...

Code:
Friday,15,December,2017,14:29:05:23114
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
VCDS Version: 17.8.1.0 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4401.4
Data version: 20171130 DS276.6
www.Ross-Tech.com

VIN: 3VWPG71K55M620606   License Plate: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine       Labels: 06A-906-032-BGQ.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 032 QC    HW: Hardware No 
  Component and/or Version: 2.5l R5/4V      G   6605
           Software Coding: 0000003
            Work Shop Code: WSC 00066 000 00000
                      VCID: 6FB8DBBF6B98A8DFB3B-803A
1 Fault Found:

16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1 
            P0420 - 002 - Efficiency Below Threshold - MIL ON

Readiness: 0000 1100

The second is data from Address 01 Engine: Advanced Measuring Values ...

Code:
Friday,15,December,2017,14:55:09:23114
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
VCDS Version: 17.8.1.0 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4401.4
Data version: 20171130 DS276.6
www.Ross-Tech.com

VIN: 3VWPG71K55M620606   License Plate: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine  (06A 906 032 QC)

14:54:57
     00011   Bank 1 Sensor 1
  00001110   Bank 1 Sensor 2
      1110   Bank 1 Sensor 3
  1.520 V   Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 1
  0.635 V   Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2
  0.505 V   Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 3
  B1-S1 OK   Result Lambda Aging
  B1-S2 OK   Lambda Sensor Aging Test B1S2
  B1-S3 OK   Lambda Sensor Aging Test B1S3
  444.0°C   Catalytic Converter Bank 1 Temp.
  Cat B1 Not OK   Cat. Conversion Test Bank 1
 
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Geoffzie

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"HOLE this" ... interpret?
 
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   #13  

Geoffzie

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Ah ... I understand perfectly.
 
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It's been WAY too cold here to get back to this project .. even with a heated garage (0-10 degrees F.)! ... up until this week.

I had pulled the downpipe with CAT off the car to take a look at it ... I knew there was a problem because the CAT "rattled" when hit. Turns out there wasn't much ceramic left in it! After much meditation ... I decided the best and cheapest way to go was, a universal CAT with provision for the Center O2 Sensor. After reading up on aftermarket CAT's I discovered that they're only required to last for 50,000 miles ... as opposed to the OEM requirements. (except for California maybe)

Since the universal CAT's on Rock Auto were relatively inexpensive ... I went with a CAT that was a little longer than required, with 2 1/4" inlet and outlet to match the Jetta MK5 exhaust, designed for a 5.9L engine / 6000LB Vehicle. It was a little longer than the one designed for smaller engines ... but I figured for $5 more dollars, it should last longer. It cost $66.78 delivered!

I removed the rest of the ceramic from the old CAT and reinstalled it back on the car before I ordered the new CAT. i just wanted to do a vacuum test at idle and about 3000 rpm steady ... to make sure there was no back pressure from "CAT debris" that might have made it's way downstream into the muffler or tailpipe and caused "clogging". Vacuum measured good in all tests, and when I tested for rattles in the rest of the exhaust (after the rest of the ceramic was removed form the old CAT) ... no more rattles.

I welded the new CAT onto the downpipe and tailpipe, reinstalled the 2 - O2 sensors, and reinstalled the exhaust. By the way, since the universal CAT's from Rock Auto have the center O2 sensor coming straight out, rather than angled, as on the OEM CAT ... you've got to position / rotate it just right so the O2 sensor clears the tunnel.

After clearing the P0420 code and driving the car for a while (to "break in" the new CAT per the manufacture) ... no more codes. As I observed the CAT temperature in Advanced Measuring Values ... the temperature got as high as 650 degrees initially, but stabilized at 400 to 500 degrees. Here's the final numbers ...

Code:
 Address 01: Engine  (06A 906 032 QC)

18:07:47
     00011   Bank 1 Sensor 1
  00001110   Bank 1 Sensor 2
      1110   Bank 1 Sensor 3
  B1-S1 OK   Result Lambda Aging
  B1-S2 OK   Lambda Sensor Aging Test B1S2
  B1-S3 OK   Lambda Sensor Aging Test B1S3
  1.440 V   Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 1
  0.630 V   Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2
  0.655 V   Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 3
  486.0°C   Catalytic Converter Bank 1 Temp.
  Cat B1 OK   Cat. Conversion Test Bank 1

Looks like the P0420 problem is solved ... for $66.78! And Jack should be happy ... cause it's legal! :rolleyes:
 
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Jack@European_Parts

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C?ID=57337
It's been WAY too cold here to get back to this project .. even with a heated garage (0-10 degrees F.)! ... up until this week.

I had pulled the downpipe with CAT off the car to take a look at it ... I knew there was a problem because the CAT "rattled" when hit. Turns out there wasn't much ceramic left in it! After much meditation ... I decided the best and cheapest way to go was, a universal CAT with provision for the Center O2 Sensor. After reading up on aftermarket CAT's I discovered that they're only required to last for 50,000 miles ... as opposed to the OEM requirements. (except for California maybe)

Since the universal CAT's on Rock Auto were relatively inexpensive ... I went with a CAT that was a little longer than required, with 2 1/4" inlet and outlet to match the Jetta MK5 exhaust, designed for a 5.9L engine / 6000LB Vehicle. It was a little longer than the one designed for smaller engines ... but I figured for $5 more dollars, it should last longer. It cost $66.78 delivered!

I removed the rest of the ceramic from the old CAT and reinstalled it back on the car before I ordered the new CAT. i just wanted to do a vacuum test at idle and about 3000 rpm steady ... to make sure there was no back pressure from "CAT debris" that might have made it's way downstream into the muffler or tailpipe and caused "clogging". Vacuum measured good in all tests, and when I tested for rattles in the rest of the exhaust (after the rest of the ceramic was removed form the old CAT) ... no more rattles.

I welded the new CAT onto the downpipe and tailpipe, reinstalled the 2 - O2 sensors, and reinstalled the exhaust. By the way, since the universal CAT's from Rock Auto have the center O2 sensor coming straight out, rather than angled, as on the OEM CAT ... you've got to position / rotate it just right so the O2 sensor clears the tunnel.

After clearing the P0420 code and driving the car for a while (to "break in" the new CAT per the manufacture) ... no more codes. As I observed the CAT temperature in Advanced Measuring Values ... the temperature got as high as 650 degrees initially, but stabilized at 400 to 500 degrees. Here's the final numbers ...

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?12848-New-Jetta-Mark-V-Sportwagen-5-speed

Looks like the P0420 problem is solved ... for $66.78! And Jack should be happy ... cause it's legal! :rolleyes:

Actually it is not and nope it doesn't comport with the regulations at all.

VIN: 3VWPG71K55M620606 Mileage: 277680km-172542miles

Address 01: Engine Labels: 06A-906-032-BGQ.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 032 QC HW: Hardware No
Component and/or Version: 2.5l R5/4V G 6605 You could of done the update 9422 or higher and fix the reason the CAT was damaged!

main-qimg-3682b3245e3515ae6d5ec10ef357c2b1-c


My way would of netted profit in end and cost nothing but than again you know what you are doing!

NostraJackass Has Spoken!
 
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   #17  

Geoffzie

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I should have rephrased that ... I should have said, "at least it will pass in Ohio for licensing". Some of us don't have an unlimited budget to work with Jack.

My way would of netted profit in end and cost nothing but than again you know what you are doing!

Jack, I don't understand how it would have "cost nothing" ... if the CAT was already destroyed. My understanding is that the CAT warranty period is only 150,000 miles or 15 years for SULEV vehicles. Obviously, I'm past that.

I do plan to check with the local VW dealer to see if there are any FREE recalls ... I'll also check into the firmware update.

I initially thought that the upper timing chain had been replaced, and they hadn't torqued the cam bolt properly. But according to the previous owner, they had driven the car for almost 7000 miles with the car running rough! They had replaced plugs, coils, O2 sensors, and then finally discovered the problem was the PCV diaphragm ... but I believe the damage was already done ... all the bucking and rough running probably loosened the cam bolt, and the lousy fuel mixture probably destroyed the CAT.
 
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Geoffzie

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I agree, but as I said above, the "underlying problem" seems to have been that the previous owner drove the car for 7000 miles in a rough-running state! I would tend to believe that THAT was the real cause of the CAT failure.

Now that the car is running, I AM going to check into the firmware update.
 
   #20  

Jack@European_Parts

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I should have rephrased that ... I should have said, "at least it will pass in Ohio for licensing". Some of us don't have an unlimited budget to work with Jack.

If you pointed out what you did to an authority of Ohio DMV, they would indeed void your inspection.



Ahhhh nope........try again!

http://epa.ohio.gov/dapc/mobile.aspx
Welcome to the Ohio E-Check Homepage


The Clean Air Act requires 31 state and local areas to conduct vehicle inspection and maintenance programs to control vehicle emissions and help meet national air quality standards.
In Jan. 1996, the State of Ohio began a new vehicle emissions testing program, E-Check, designed to identify motor vehicles that emit excessive levels of pollutants into the air. Among the other emissions control options considered by legislature, E-Check was the most cost-efficient measure to reduce the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) that form ground-level ozone, or smog. The program currently tests cars in seven Ohio counties.




Jack, I don't understand how it would have "cost nothing" ... if the CAT was already destroyed. My understanding is that the CAT warranty period is only 150,000 miles or 15 years for SULEV vehicles. Obviously, I'm past that.

I do plan to check with the local VW dealer to see if there are any FREE recalls ... I'll also check into the firmware update. <<<<< GOOD!

I initially thought that the upper timing chain had been replaced, and they hadn't torqued the cam bolt properly. But according to the previous owner, they had driven the car for almost 7000 miles with the car running rough! They had replaced plugs, coils, O2 sensors, and then finally discovered the problem was the PCV diaphragm ... but I believe the damage was already done ... all the bucking and rough running probably loosened the cam bolt, and the lousy fuel mixture probably destroyed the CAT.


See it is all how you argue an issue and obtain the documentation......just stop trying to argue your way into a hole.
Check yourself and JPPSG by education.

Lets observe the facts:

Car has a required update due, TSB exists for a problem with Injectors, EVAP and CAT + VC etc....etc.... ( known issues )
These things obviously were not done nor was the customer properly informed with proof of good service to do these things?

So to me .......you can say they are all a vicarious result of the known issues that were not corrected at time of warranty to comport with CAA or extension of warranty as a result of not lasting the stated useful life.
Demand proof of service or a signed form showing the prior owner declined such repairs or ask for a written statement from prior owner asking if he had knowledge.
In some states they maybe even share liability.
Then complain to VW alleging the aforementioned directly & if no satisfaction is had since a campaign was not properly initiated to begin with, contact the agencies that work for you on your tax money & make them do something!

The more people that stand up and say something will force agencies to see there is a pattern and a problem they must correct.

It doesn't cost that much money to write some emails......or letters certified mail.
 
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