Leak in Air Intake with Lean at Idle and EVAP

T10 · Oct 11, 2017

Hello guys,

first of all - thanks for such robust and quality product. Sleek design and speedy workflow on Hex V2 is simply amazing.

On the other hand, I have a lasting problem with my car and hopefully, we could find an area for discussion. Started with EVAP problem, and now finishing with air intake, lean system and EVAP is back again.

PR-build
I have Audi A5, 2014 2.0TFSI quattro, 162kw.

Car modifications

Stage 1 remap
Wagner intercooler
Pipecross air filter

VCDS Auto-scan

Code:

Wednesday,11,October,2017,16:12:09:00499
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
VCDS Version: 17.8.0.1 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4401.4
Data version: 20170721 DS276.2
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: WAUGFBFR9EA   License Plate: 
Mileage: 70360km-43719mi   Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: FR-AU48 (8R0)
Scan: 01 03 05 06 08 09 15 16 17 19 2E 36 42 44 46 47 52 53 56 77
         

VIN: WAUGFBFR9EA   Mileage: 70360km-43719miles

01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 0010
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
05-Acc/Start Auth. -- Status: OK 0000
06-Seat Mem. Pass -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: OK 0000
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
2E-Media Player 3 -- Status: OK 0000
36-Seat Mem. Drvr -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
47-Sound System -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: OK 0000
53-Parking Brake -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: OK 0000
77-Telephone -- Status: OK 0000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine (MY15-CAED)       Labels:. 06H-907-115-CDN.clb
   Part No SW: 8K5 907 115 M    HW: 8K2 907 115 L
   Component: 2.0l R4/4V TF H09 0005  
   Revision: ECH09---    
   Coding: 5A190013242600062000
   Shop #: WSC 45864 002 1048576
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TFS0118K5907115M 001006
   ROD: EV_ECM20TFS0118K5907115M.rod
   VCID: 3C223C4206EBB8D7472-8068

4 Faults Found:
5646 - Leak in Air Intake System 
          P2279 00 [237] - -
          MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 70281 km
                    Date: 2017.10.10
                    Time: 16:12:16

                    Engine speed: 759.50 /min
                    Normed load value: 7.1 %
                    Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 80 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 26 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 990 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 14.677 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
                    Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
                    Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

4105 - Bank 1; System too Lean at Idle 
          P2187 00 [101] - -
          Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 70356 km
                    Date: 2017.10.10
                    Time: 16:00:22

                    Engine speed: 916.50 /min
                    Normed load value: 7.1 %
                    Vehicle speed: 33 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 97 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 24 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 990 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 14.654 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 80
                    Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
                    Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3



4007 - Idle Control System RPM 
          P0507 00 [038] - Higher than Expected.
          Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 70362 km
                    Date: 2017.10.10
                    Time: 16:07:52

                    Engine speed: 904.00 /min
                    Normed load value: 7.1 %
                    Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 98 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 36 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 990 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 14.300 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
                    Engine status: COENG_RUNNING
                    Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 3

4219 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
          P0441 00 [096] - Incorrect Flow
          Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 70293 km
                    Date: 2017.10.10
                    Time: 23:21:50

                    Engine speed: 706.50 /min
                    Normed load value: 5.5 %
                    Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 98 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 37 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 990 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 14.489 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 39
                    Ethanol content in fuel: 0.0 %
                    Fuel content due to degassing of engine oil: 0.00 %
                    Cold start valve: activation duration: 0.00 ms
                    Cold start valve: mileage at last purge: 0 km
                    Cold start valve: date at last purge: 0

Readiness: 0000 0101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels: None
   Part No SW: 8K0 907 379 CM    HW: 8K0 907 379 CM
   Component: ESP8 quattro  H09 0020  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: --------------
   Coding: 07150001
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 06569EAA08273207616-8052

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. (J393)       Labels:. 8K0-907-064-05.clb
   Part No SW: 8K0 907 064 JL    HW: 8K0 907 064 JL
   Component: BCM2 2.0      H14 0650  
   Revision: 00002001    
   Coding: 03804040000000000000
   Shop #: WSC 23444 000 00000
   VCID: 035087BE3B15072F468-8056

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 8K0 959 754 F    HW: 8K0 959 754 F
   Component: FBSAUDIB8 IDG  H71 0083 
   Serial number: 0514000021999015    

   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 8K0 905 852 E    HW: 8K0 905 852 E
   Component: J764 ELV MLB  H40 0046 
   Serial number: 0214000011670010    

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 06: Seat Mem. Pass (J521)       Labels:. 8T0-959-760.clb
   Part No SW: 8T0 959 760 E    HW: 8T0 959 760 E
   Component: MEM-BFS       H10 0077  
   Revision: AA000000    Serial number: 00000091217173
   Coding: 08037025002400001000
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 45D459A675A1F91F28C-8010

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC (J255)       Labels: Redir Fail!
   Part No SW: 8K1 820 043 R    HW: 8K1 820 043 R
   Component: KLIMA 1 ZONE  H02 0121  
   Revision: A1000000    Serial number: 01140220140609
   Coding: 6402208000
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 3728236E3F4D9B8FAA0-8062

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels:. 8K0-907-063.clb
   Part No SW: 8K0 907 063 DF    HW: 8K0 907 063 DF
   Component: BCM1 1.0      H16 0103  
   Revision: 06016001    Serial number: 00000061429002
   Coding: 26000097813CAFC00000400300003D0D4F1C138822090301000004004400030100000000000000
   Shop #: WSC 23444 123 12345
   VCID: 76B6EE6A78C72287716-8022

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 8T1 955 119 D    HW: 8J1 955 119   Labels: 1KX-955-119.CLB
   Component: WWS 070214  H15 0080 
   Serial number: SWF14020075358      
   Coding: 00FD11

   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 8U0 955 559 B    HW: 8U0 955 559 B  Labels: 8U0-955-559.CLB
   Component: G397_RLFS  H06 0002 
   Serial number: 22252219            
   Coding: 02005D

   Subsystem 3 - Part No SW: 8K0 941 531 AS    HW: 8K0 941 531 AS
   Component: E1 - LDS  H03 0031 
   Serial number: 00000000000802140857

   Subsystem 4 - Part No SW: 4G0 907 658 A    HW: 4G0 907 658 A
   Component: Humidity_Sens  H03 0002 
   Serial number: D8784117000000000001

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags (J234)       Labels:| 8K0-959-655.clb
   Part No SW: 8K0 959 655 P    HW: 8K0 959 655 P
   Component: AirbagVW-AU10 H47 0610  
   Serial number: 003KJDB13PY0  
   Coding: 30414333483030303030554A304C38543053
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_AirbaECUVWAUDI010 003010
   ROD: EV_AirbaECUVWAUDI010_003_AU48.rod
   VCID: 4ACE6A9A5C3F1667C5E-801E

   Crash sensor for side airbag: driver side: 
   Serial number: 6334MSME422E2A61E

   Crash sensor for side airbag: front passenger side: 
   Serial number: 6344MSME435E2F4EZ

   Crash sensor for side airbag: rear: driver side: 
   Serial number: 6352QSME024234484

   Crash sensor for side airbag: rear: passenger side: 
   Serial number: 6362QSME7F412476O

   Crash sensor for front airbag: driver side: 
   Serial number: 63732SME2C56337C6

   Crash sensor for front airbag: front passenger side: 
   Serial number: 63832SME0B3D4B706

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel (J527)       Labels:. 8K0-953-568.clb
   Part No SW: 8K0 953 568 Q    HW: 8K0 953 568 Q
   Component: Lenks.Modul   H03 0003  
   Revision: C0062331    Serial number: 90862NBF001PC 
   Coding: 000016
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 48CA509242B3E477D3A-801C

   Component: E221 - MFL  H03 0004 

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments (J285)       Labels:. 8T0-920-xxx-17.clb
   Part No SW: 8T0 920 901 M    HW: 8T0 920 901 M
   Component: KOMBIINSTR.   H11 0564  
   Revision: 00100000    Serial number: Z962CD32F     
   Coding: 8F7D010002010008020001
   Shop #: WSC 06325 123 12345
   VCID: 3E26364A1077AAC7696-806A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway (J533)       Labels:. 8T0-907-468.clb
   Part No SW: 8R0 907 468 L    HW: 8R0 907 468 A
   Component: GW-BEM 5CAN   H11 0060  
   Revision: 1V090029    Serial number: 2941V14201055E
   Coding: 80C303FF00
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 48CA509242B3E477D3A-801C

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 8T0 915 181     HW: 8T0 915 181 
   Component: J367-BDMHella  H03 8041 
   Serial number: 1360122503          

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 2E: Media Player 3 (R199)       Labels:. 8T0-035-785.clb
   Part No SW: 8T0 035 785 A    HW: 8T0 035 785 
   Component: SG ext.Player H08 0290  
   Revision: 00000000    
   Coding: 020202
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 392C255609598DFF5C4-806C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr (J136)       Labels:. 8T0-959-760.clb
   Part No SW: 8T0 959 760 E    HW: 8T0 959 760 E
   Component: MEM-FS        H10 0077  
   Revision: AA000000    Serial number: 00000091220542
   Coding: 08037025002400001000
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 45D459A675A1F91F28C-8010

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver (J386)       Labels:. 8K0-959-793.clb
   Part No SW: 8T0 959 793 P    HW: 8T0 959 793 G
   Component: TSG FA        H09 0305  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: --------------
   Coding: 011C03224000120102
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 56F68EEA98074287516-8002

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist (J500)       Labels:| 8K0-909-144.clb
   Part No SW: 8K0 909 144 R    HW: 8K0 909 144 B
   Component: RCEPS         H40 0511  
   Revision: 00001000    Serial number: 0024519382
   Coding: 100000010001
   Shop #: WSC 06324 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_RCEPSAU48X 008018
   ROD: EV_RCEPSAU48X_008.rod
   VCID: 40DA48B26A03DC371BA-8014

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. (J393)       Labels:. 8K0-907-064-46.clb
   Part No SW: 8K0 907 064 JL    HW: 8K0 907 064 JL
   Component: BCM2 2.0      H14 0650  
   Revision: 00002001    Serial number: 0325065423    
   Coding: 0106069A08FA00448330003200000000
   Shop #: WSC 06325 123 12345
   VCID: 035087BE3B15072F468-8056

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1K0 951 605 C
   Component: LIN BACKUP HO  H05 1501 

   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 8R0 959 591 A    HW: 8R0 959 591 
   Component: J245EE20SKB13  H05 0220 
   Serial number: 0123456789ABCDEFGHIJ

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System (J525)       Labels: None
   Part No SW: 8R1 035 223 A    HW: 8R1 035 223 
   Component: DSP STD       H08 0230  
   Revision: 26S00000    
   Coding: 0203010102
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 2B000F1EF3052F6FDE8-807E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass. (J387)       Labels:. 8K0-959-792.clb
   Part No SW: 8T0 959 792 P    HW: 8T0 959 792 G
   Component: TSG BF        H09 0305  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: --------------
   Coding: 011C03224000120102
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 55F489E68501499F58C-8000

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 53: Parking Brake (----)       Labels: 8K0-907-801-V2.clb
   Part No SW: 8K0 907 801 N    HW: 8K0 907 801 J
   Component: EPB-4         H01 0005  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: 30000000167623
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ParkiBrake 001028
   ROD: EV_ParkiBrake_VW51.rod
   VCID: 3A2E3A5A0CDF86E755E-806E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio (J503)       Labels:. 8Tx-035-1xx-56.clb
   Part No SW: 8R1 035 186 Q    HW: 8R1 035 186 Q
   Component: Con3 Sirius   H09 0471  
   Revision: 00000003    Serial number: AUZ5Z6N2003819
   Coding: 00020002010485038959830903
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 43D047BE7B95C72F068-8016

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 8T0 919 603 G    HW: 8T0 919 603 G
   Component: Display  

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 77: Telephone        Labels: 8P0-862-335.lbl
   Part No SW: 8T0 862 336 F    HW: 8T0 862 336 E
   Component: FSE_256x BT     H45 0660  
   Revision: 00000000    Serial number: 00000005335836
   Coding: 0010370
   Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
   VCID: 3E26364A1C77AAC7696-806A

No fault code found.

End----------(Elapsed Time: 01:24, VBatt start/end: 12.3V/12.2V)-----------

Recent repairs
Well, it all started somewhat back in April. EVAP P0441 incorrrect flow appeared. All parts were changed into new OEM, except Vapor Canister, swapped it from a used car. From that point:
1. Changed Evap Purge Valve
2. Changed Secondary Air Injection Pump Hose with Vapor Canister Filter (was bulbing at the top of the rear driver side)
3. Changed Vapor Canister with pressure switch.

All these changes didn't helped to get rid of the incorrect flow issue. Accordingly, I registered at Audi to solve the problem.
1. They inspected the system and changed Vacuum System Purge Valve with Hose Set.
2. Updated ECU as there was a new software version from Audi.

Now that seemed to solve the problem at that point, for one day. After that, I started getting three more faults:

Code:

5646 - Leak in Air Intake System 
P2279 00 [237]
4105 - Bank 1; System too Lean at Idle 
P2187 00 [101] 
4007 - Idle Control System RPM 
P0507 00 [038] - Higher than Expected.

Accordingly, here is what we did further:

Changed PCV valve (didn't helped)
Audi inspected all the possible components for vacuum leak - everything seems tight.

And after some time, old good friend EVAP appeared again.
4219 - EVAP Emission Control Sys
P0441 00 [096] - Incorrect Flow

Specific issues
What I started getting with these errors:

Idle jumping from 650 to 950rpm with clima off
When rpm sets in place, car shakes a bit, doesn't run perfectly smooth, even through rpm's are at one point.
After filling a full tank, I need to spin on the starter for a few times in order to start the car for a first time. Further - no problems.
System is running lean. Not 100% sure I am looking at the right values on UDS, but here they are:

Next steps
Audi offers me to change Vapor canister pressure switch and see whether it solves the issue. On the other hand, I already changed some working parts which in fact didn't solved the issue. Accordingly, I am looking for any other possible ways this could be INSPECTED FIRST, before changing parts.

If I run Tank Ventilation Test in basic settings, it ends as Not OK.

If it is EVAP causing this Leak in Air Intake and Lean at Idle, I am not sure where to dig further... Any ideas?
Can it be failing oxygen sensors? Is there any chance to read their values and inspect the problem from them?
Intake manifold?
Fuel injectors?
Somehow clogged/squeezed fuel lines at the top of the fuel tank?
MAF? Tested it by running full throttle and values were in described range.

Any suggestion is highly appreciated! Thank you up front for any help!

Uwe · Oct 11, 2017

I don't have any ideas as to what might be wrong with this car, but that is a fantastic first post! :thumbs:

-Uwe-

Ashraf6119 · Oct 11, 2017

Have you checked the High Fuel Pressure Pump......?

T10 · Oct 11, 2017

Ashraf6119 said:
Have you checked the High Fuel Pressure Pump......?

What in particular to look for - the pressure it delivers or any manual inspection/check should be initiated?

Overall, few other things I have in mind, simplified. Since there is an additive air/not enough fuel situation (at least errors direct towards this), I see two main reasons:
1. Air is somewhere going into the system after the MAF, that way creating too much air dense mixture, which is not measured properly. This cause not enough fuel delivery, even though everything with fuel supply could be OK.
2. There is a proper amount of air, no actual leaks, but with failure in fuel delivery, not enough fuel is passed into a mixture. Accordingly, ECU thinks there are too much air.

Now with option one - it is most likely not the case, as no visible/noticeable/traceable leaks were found, no cracks, nothing. UNLESS this is something with intake manifold itself. What could be checked to make sure the intake is not failing in some fashion?

Option 2 - not enough fuel. That way fuel delivery unit should create not sufficient pressure or there are not 100% bandwidth in fuel lines, etc?

These are only my logical guesses, though... Does such presumptions make sense or I am missing something major?

Uwe · Oct 11, 2017

This set of codes almost screams air leak somewhere:

Code:

5646 - Leak in Air Intake System 
P2279 00 [237]
4105 - Bank 1; System too Lean at Idle 
P2187 00 [101] 
4007 - Idle Control System RPM 
P0507 00 [038] - Higher than Expected.

I don't see how too little fuel would cause a higher-than-commanded speed.

-Uwe-

Jack@European_Parts · Oct 11, 2017

Was the tank valve upgraded to the later part # & to work with the firmware update as per the TSB?

False air leaks are easy to locate by isolation.

Crimp off to correct the idle and then fix that zone.

Verify TV and intake leaks directly by chemical identifier and water mist to induce misfire.

Verify the PSI/vacuum of the block for proper switching not just the PCV.

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...essional-Problem-Solver-Guide-quot-JPPSG-quot

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthr...gases-and-vacuum-amp-so-should-you!-Air-leaks!

Gary · Oct 12, 2017

I have had the breather oil separator causing issues, is it worth trying a new one, because if that's faulty, you won't see any visible air leaks.
Search for 06H 103 495AK and have a look at the item. It has been superseded so may be the older ones have a known issue.

T10 · Oct 12, 2017

Jack - since the inspection and valve upgrade was made @ Audi, I would expect they did the best to make sure these aspects were covered...They used that chemical around all the possible junctions and not certain whether looking 2nd time myself could make it any better?

Gary said:
I have had the breather oil separator causing issues, is it worth trying a new one, because if that's faulty, you won't see any visible air leaks.
Search for 06H 103 495AK and have a look at the item. It has been superseded so may be the older ones have a known issue.

Thanks, Gary. Breather oil separator aka PCV already replaced to the latest OEM part. Was expecting that red button could be the issue (https://youtu.be/hQEciqR1ST8?t=1m40s), but unfortunately - not.

Taking another look into the P2279 documentation:
Vacuum Leak- assuming this one is inspected with no prior leaks.
Intake Manifold Runner Position out of Specification - is there any chance to diagnose this?
Faulty Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) or Heating Element (N79) - PCV changed. What N79 stands for?

The main reason why I expect this is something to be with tank/fuel delivery, is because of EVAP problems in the past, as well as not starting instantly after filling a full tank up to the click. And when it finally starts, it works rough and shaky. BUT it happens only on a first engine run after the fill. Here is the video:

Also, just noticed one strange thing, which I haven't noticed while recording - take a look at a temperature gauge - I filled the tank after driving ~25km, so the engine was at full working temp. Why the gauge dropped down after going to its position? There is NO CHANCE it could cool down

Maybe its another guide to follow, N79? Not sure at all what it could mean, though.

Overall, I am just a regular guy, who likes to make some tweaks to the car by himself. Not that much experienced

)

Jack@European_Parts · Oct 12, 2017

Overall, I am just a regular guy, who likes to make some tweaks to the car by himself. Not that much experienced)

Bullshit........ you sir...... are not a regular guy..... but I like your process! :rolleyes:

Okay I am in agreement that something is going on in tank and I would pump up the tank and crimp off the lines and then watch hold PSI.
Then zone by zone verify what is permitting vapors to enter as a leak.

I also think it could be compounded & that the block itself could be leaking air or vacuum or over vacuum from BVP on the mechanical not being limited through restrictive orifice and if it does will lose the vacuum needed to initiate the LDP functions or even a proper evap stream when N80 pulsed.

T10 · Oct 12, 2017

Jack, thanks once again for your insights! At the moment I do not have availability to make mechanical inspection, accordingly, trying to clear all variables from the diagnostics side. I am with UDS, not that much easy like it would be with CAN measurement blocks, but well - I am trying

Fuel Rail Pressure
With temp over 80 degrees Celsius, no engine running, the fuel pressure goes from starting 40Mpa value up to 80Mpa in 3-4minutes. No problems with fuel pressure, right?

Fuel trims with and without errors
Even though I am not 100% certain whether I used proper trim data, these are quite self explanatory. The idea was to leave it on idle for some time, then apply the throttle and then keep it for idle. I wanted to see how the short/long term trims builds in two conditions. Firstly, with all the errors, then without.

O2 oxygen values with P2279 and without
I wanted to see how the oxygen sensor voltage builds in two conditions - when errors are already there and when ECU is building from the values of 0.

UPDATED:
Here are my insights/questions in regards to the data. As you can see, I applied throttle to indicate the changes in the system.
1. When throttle applied, long term adaptation drops drastically, by 50%. This showcases a vacuum leak?
2. With errors in the system, short term adaptation doesn't bounce too much. However, once cleared away, the movement of this value jumps significantly. In addition, why the long term adaptation goes to such high figures of >50%?
3. O2 sensors in both cases are far from oscillation in a wave form. Is this is a result of vacuum leak as well? Have no idea about this. Maybe other values say something?
4. What "leakage recognition from oxygen sensor control" value stands for? Couldn't find any reasonable information about this.

Overall - I am not crazy! Just like to see the data in charts, rather than numbers. It might help to see something

Thank you!

Jack@European_Parts · Oct 13, 2017

Now Uwe will always be impressed with good charts like a moth to a light

.....me I prefer raw numbers and actual mechanicals done.

OBD data means nothing to me if basics of mechanicals are yet or failed to be performed first, otherwise everything on the tables are potentially tilted to a degree and with adaption or in some cases FOD rogue stack code!

Otherwise a great post and I agree most likely a vacuum leak...........

Negating basics is very bad before using such data to me........

T10 · Oct 13, 2017

Jack, thanks for your reply. Basically, the car been for inspection at repair service twice, with no physical/mechanical results of an issue. In my personal opinion it is not correct behaviour to change random parts from a guess, well, maybe it will do the trick this time. Or at least, even if it is a good workflow, it is not to my taste. For now I have three suggestions:

Change vapor canister pressure switch and expect this to solve itself, due to failing EVAP - Cheapest guess
Change O2 sensors, just in case they are failing. Only a plain guess
Remove fuel tank and look for any clogged/damaged lines. Full day of work

Accordingly, I thought to dig into the data in case some failing condition can be spotted. Meaning, with my lack of knowledge in diagnostics, chances are not that high. I could and will try to review the potential leaks once again, but until this happens - data mining in the process

With that said, it seems reasonable to look into the data this way.

For example, if, under throttle, long term fuel mixture drops drastically, and on idle comes back to its highs - it should mean something.
If voltage is at the lower point than it should be - this indicates something as well. What actually? Who knows

If there is a leakage recognition from oxygen sensors, why not to understand what it does and why?

At least I think it should be guides out of this, leading to a problem cause. Simple IF/ELSE conditions and cases. And then, these could be reviewed and inspected mechanically (hopefully)

Gary · Oct 13, 2017

When you had the software update done from Audi, did you leave it standard or did you have the Remap put back on straight away?

Jack@European_Parts · Oct 13, 2017

Jack, thanks for your reply. Basically, the car been for inspection at repair service twice, with no physical/mechanical results of an issue. In my personal opinion it is not correct behaviour to change random parts from a guess, well, maybe it will do the trick this time. Or at least, even if it is a good workflow, it is not to my taste. For now I have three suggestions:

Change vapor canister pressure switch and expect this to solve itself, due to failing EVAP - Cheapest guess

Change O2 sensors, just in case they are failing. Only a plain guess

Remove fuel tank and look for any clogged/damaged lines. Full day of work

Accordingly, I thought to dig into the data in case some failing condition can be spotted. Meaning, with my lack of knowledge in diagnostics, chances are not that high. I could and will try to review the potential leaks once again, but until this happens - data mining in the process

With that said, it seems reasonable to look into the data this way.

For example, if, under throttle, long term fuel mixture drops drastically, and on idle comes back to its highs - it should mean something.
If voltage is at the lower point than it should be - this indicates something as well. What actually? Who knows
If there is a leakage recognition from oxygen sensors, why not to understand what it does and why?

At least I think it should be guides out of this, leading to a problem cause. Simple IF/ELSE conditions and cases. And then, these could be reviewed and inspected mechanically (hopefully)

I am not implying such a thing & when the OBD doesn't steer you to the fault being absolute, mechanical tests are what are used to determine a problem to a system by "testing", not changing parts just to see.

No substitute for basics ..........

OBD is a guide and often leads people the wrong way due to lack of ability to understand it or when failing to do basic mechanical tests to cross check the OBD data as observed.

T10 · Oct 13, 2017

Gary said:
When you had the software update done from Audi, did you leave it standard or did you have the Remap put back on straight away?

To my understanding, Audi updated software and remap is left as it was, unchanged. I can say this, as the health/response from the car didn’t changed.

Also, I contacted remappers and they said it should not be related. Should I insist for a re-check?

Jack - I got your point and completely agree with you. Just if few checks didn’t helped, I look for other solutions, as otherwise I would be banging head into the wall, hehe!

Jack@European_Parts · Oct 13, 2017

What is the status of the TV at idle and idle offset mechanically in relation to TPS reporting in the ECU blocks?

Have you isolate all zones during idle to verify they are not compromised by crimping off all?

If all zones are crimped off and TV is okay than intake is leaking at gasket or by means of PCV.

If fault goes away at idle with zones crimped off, then isolate one by until lean error reoccurs.

Not rocket science, no fancy charts needs, no smoking mirror either...........don't over think it.

Cost is TIME!

KISS the JPPSG!

Car came in this week .........from two shops and dealer.......... looked at for a misfire in # 1 on a CBUA 5 zyl.

All 3 said that the engine had compression in # 1 and within a few pounds of the respective other zyl's.

I do a test and it's at 70 PSI running!!!!! WTF!
So I take out second compression tester to cross check it and it was right at 70 PSI and others are at 160.....so I know I am right.

ivagp · Oct 13, 2017

Jack@European_Parts said:
Car came in this week .........from two shops and dealer.......... looked at for a misfire in # 1 on a CBUA 5 zyl.

All 3 said that the engine had compression in # 1 and within a few pounds of the respective other zyl's.

I do a test and it's at 70 PSI running!!!!! WTF!
So I take out second compression tester to cross check it and it was right at 70 PSI and others are at 160.....so I know I am right.

I thought this was going to be one of those jokes "three men walk into a bar" etc etc so on so forth and what have you.

Jack@European_Parts · Oct 13, 2017

Nope..... not a joke.
It makes me sad but it hits home for this thread, further needing a KISS on basic mechanicals.

T10 · Oct 26, 2017

Hello guys,

hope you missed me, hehe! Basically, during these two weeks another one leak inspection been made without any proper results. Accordingly, decided to change that pressure switch on vapor canister, since it was malfunctioning.

Results?

After filing the fuel tank, the same, do not want to start remains (no matter whether you add just few litters of fuel or up to the full tank). After replacing that switch, I might say that car became a bit more responsive to the throttle on lower RPM than it was before.

However, leakage and high RPM on idle still there. Lean condition still haven't appeared, but its just a matter of time I guess.

MY QUESTION IS - can this non starting problem be related with the air leakage? How it could be possible to nail down the cause of that rough start after the fill? What to look for, fuel delivery, some vacuum lines?

Jack - some answers from my end.

What is the status of the TV at idle and idle offset mechanically in relation to TPS reporting in the ECU blocks?

I am not sure how TV could be offset mechanically, since TV is electronic, without a wire? TV at idle, when it is running rough increases/decreases when checking through Measuring Blocks. However, I am not certain this is what I should have looked for, in regards to your suggestion.

Have you isolate all zones during idle to verify they are not compromised by crimping off all?
If all zones are crimped off and TV is okay than intake is leaking at gasket or by means of PCV.
If fault goes away at idle with zones crimped off, then isolate one by until lean error reoccurs.

The main problem is that unsteady idle is only for a particular amount of time - meaning, after some idle time it settles down. The only difference in the lean/rich condition I noticed was when a line to N80 was crimped off, lean went down twice in that case. On the other hand, with zones crimped off - and TV is okay - how OK is estimated in this case - no pulse, steady?

Thank you!

T10 · Nov 14, 2017

Fuel Filling

Hello guys,

I have one questions, in regards to fuel filling. The car fuel tank should be 61L, while I never had a chance to fill it somewhat close to that value.

There was few times when I was running on a reserve for 30km, meaning there were not too much left in the tank. And in such cases, I was able to fill no more than 50L of fuel. Since I am having fuel filling problem and none inspections helped till this point, I logged the fuel filling.

Few things:

Why there could be an area in the middle, when no action is logged?
What could be the reason (is it normal like that) that fuel filling ends after 56L, and then abruptly changes to 61L, aka full tank?
Can first two be related?

When fuel filling, I fill up to the click and do not add up on top. Just wondering, maybe this could illustrate the reason why I can't start up after fuel fill.

Accordingly, it spins for 6-10s, and then runs as harsh as it can + white fumes + rough idle.

Thanks.

Leak in Air Intake with Lean at Idle and EVAP

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