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Thread: Anyone know what this is?

  1. #11
    Verified VCDS User PetrolDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vreihen View Post
    Makes hippies and tree-huggers feel good to only be buying "clean" power, but in reality they have no way of actually measuring exact uses per-provider for billing...and certainly no end-to-end per-electron accounting.
    Which is something many "Green tree huggers" just don't understand when they say "I only use Green electricity" - and get most upset when you tell them that's untrue, like everyone they use whatever electrons find the easiest path from generator to their home or office so they could be paying a premium price for "Green" electricity and actually using electrons from a coal power station.

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  3. #12
    Verified VCDS User vreihen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jef View Post
    Stingray... you know, for your protection.... or whatever line of crap they tell us.
    Looking at the picture in my phone closely, it does appear to be a multi-sector canister antenna similar to this Amphenol one:

    https://www.tessco.com/products/disp....do?sku=591412

    You are right, though. It could very well being used for eavesdropping. After all, there's even an HBO TV special out there about "the Newburgh Four" terrorist case.....

  4. #13
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetrolDave View Post
    Which is something many "Green tree huggers" just don't understand when they say "I only use Green electricity" - and get most upset when you tell them that's untrue, like everyone they use whatever electrons find the easiest path from generator to their home or office so they could be paying a premium price for "Green" electricity and actually using electrons from a coal power station.
    Well, there is something to be said for allowing those people to spend their money as they wish. I'd rather the "Green tree huggers" pay for the windmills and solar farms (that need to be backed up with conventional generating capacity anyway) than all of us having to pay for it.

    -Uwe-
    Ceterum censeo, delenda est Daesh.

  5. #14
    Verified VCDS User NZDubNurd's Avatar
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    Are these the same "Tree-huggers" who buy a prius to "reduce their carbon footprint" and then drive EVERYWHERE, when they should be on their bike???

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetrolDave View Post
    Most properties in the UK also still use rotating wheel kWHr meters too!

    Why?

    So smart meters have quickly gained a VERY bad reputation here, which will take a lot of work (and I suspect along time) to recover from.
    Dave:I'm aware that like us, you guys have a time based spot price for wholesale electricity - which very much lends itself to electronic meters. I'm also aware of lots of conspiracy theories among domestic consumers about smart meters (they are alive and kicking down here too).

    The fact is that electricity retailers in a spot market environment ostensibly take the variable wholesale prices (for purchases on the spot market) and they convert these to fixed retail tariffs to domestic customers (like you and me) - plus a nice profit margin for their shareholder. The problem with the price of fixed retail tariffs that result from this Wholesale/retail conversion process is that they are ALL based on averages and therefore they suffer from the law-of-averages.

    So- to give you a sense of the variation between peak and normal prices that the averaging process must accommodate on the wholesale, spot market - the underlying commodity price for Australia sits at about $60-$80/mwhr, but the maximum price can (and has) risen as high as $12,000/mwhr (this is called Voll). Your electricity market is similar.

    What this means is that your fixed retail tariff assumes that your usage pattern is the same as someone with a much more "peaky" usage profile. Which means that there is a whole lot of cross subsidization that occurs within a particular tariff cohort. This is great if you happen to be a consumer with a "peaky" profile, but it's not so good if you happen to have a normal usage profile!

    So, the interesting question about cross subsidizing in retail fixed tariffs is - who is paying and who is being subsidized? Well it works-out (not surprisingly perhaps) that folk who have lots of electrical appliances and who invariably have high usage tend to be the ones who have "peakier" load profiles.

    Moral of the story - fixed retail electricity tariffs invariably impose a perverse outcome where the poor subsidize the rich. Spinning wheel kwhr meters reinforce this perversity and they are a relic of a bygone era when the electricity industry was a vertically integrated monopoly. Fact is that lots of changes have been made since those prehistoric times - I for one am not happy to support wealthy (read -high usage) electricity consumers and I am very happy to be using a smart meter

    Now, I'm sorry to read that in your part of the world changing meters is an impediment to changing retailers, but this is a problem with your regulation rules (it's not a problem with smart meters). Down here, all the meters are owned by a separate entity (monopoly service provider with regulated prices). We keep the same meter when we change retailer!

    Don
    Last edited by DV52; 06-14-2017 at 02:59 AM.
    VW Golf MkVII (103TSI) my13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    Well, there is something to be said for allowing those people to spend their money as they wish. I'd rather the "Green tree huggers" pay for the windmills and solar farms (that need to be backed up with conventional generating capacity anyway) than all of us having to pay for it.

    -Uwe-
    Uwe: wise idiom - folk should indeed be allowed to spend their money as they see fit and there can be no doubt that in the future, the mix of generation will be both a mix of windmills and solar farms - as well as more conventional plant.

    But the problem is that electrons don't make the distinction between tree-huggers and tree-cutters! Alas your average, every day electron is entirely ambivalent to this dynamic and it just goes about honoring the basic rules of physics.

    What this means is that because there is only one electricity system to supply a community, the wants of tree-huggers and the needs of tree-cutters are not indivisible. They affect the same infrastructure and they very much impact on the reliability of the central network.

    We had an instance down here recently where South Australia (a state in our federation) had a particularly "green" policy regarding new generation and they installed massive wind-mill farms (and they shut down conventional spinning rotor generators). All went well until a recent storm shut down the electrical inter-connector into the South Australia (from the rest of Australia) effectively electrically island-ing the state. So the wind generators became the predominant form of supply for a large part of Southern Australia. The loss of the large inertia from Australia's convention spinning rotor generators meant that South Australia couldn't maintain its 50hz frequency (the rotors in the wind generators were just too small)- result, the electrical grid became unstable and the state went to system-black!!

    Moral of the story tree-huggers and tree-cutters are in this together - one can't ignore the other 'cause them electrons won't allow it!!

    Don
    VW Golf MkVII (103TSI) my13

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  10. #17
    Verified VCDS User vreihen's Avatar
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    Incoming NostraJackAss rant about how demand meters are the work of the devil in 3...2...1.....

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  12. #18
    Benevolent Dictator Uwe's Avatar
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    Commercial and industrial users have had peak demand reading meters for a long, long time. Back in the 1990s, Bruce and I were involved in a custom/specialty transformer and controls business. The biggest electrical consumers we had were two baking ovens and two annealing furnaces. You should see what it did to our electricity bill in those rare months when we ran both annealing furnaces at the same time for some reason.

    In many places, commercial and industrial users also have their power factor monitored and get surcharged for any significant divergence from 1.0. Power factor is mathematically expressed as the phase angle between current and voltage, but is often caused by peaky (non uniform) draw during the AC voltage wave-form, e.g. from phase-fired SCR controls, or on a residential scale, light dimmers.

    -Uwe-
    Ceterum censeo, delenda est Daesh.

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  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uwe View Post
    In many places, commercial and industrial users also have their power factor monitored and get surcharged for any significant divergence from 1.0. Power factor is mathematically expressed as the phase angle between current and voltage, but is often caused by peaky (non uniform) draw during the AC voltage wave-form, e.g. from phase-fired SCR controls, or on a residential scale, light dimmers.

    -Uwe-
    Uwe: I suspect the reason why industrial customers up there are penalised for poor power factors is because the electricity authority is still charging for KWhr usage, but they are supplying the industrial/commercial premises also with large amounts of KVAR (i.e. the consumer is using both real and reactive power, but is paying only for real power).

    Again these types of industrial/commercial retail tariffs are a relic of a bygone era (notwithstanding that they are time-of-use tariffs) where the only devices that were available to measure consumption were the old-fashion spinning disk meters. Fact is though that it costs money to provide reactive power (i.e. KVAR): more fuel is burned if the generators are over-excited.

    The proper answer for these poor power factor sites is for the supply authority to charge on the basis of KVA - that way supply costs align with retail charges

    Don

    PS: Of course the other answer is to use DC instead!!

    Last edited by DV52; 06-14-2017 at 09:25 AM.
    VW Golf MkVII (103TSI) my13

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  16. #20
    Verified VCDS User vreihen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DV52 View Post
    PS: Of course the other answer is to use DC instead!!
    If Thomas Edison's DC grid won out over Tesla's AC grid, it would have meant a gazillion more small generators close to the point of consumption. Considering how "the grid" has grown so large that it is a target for terrorists/hackers and is a huge single point of failure, I'm starting to think that the world would have been a better place without Tesla's interference. Of course, the lamp cord on your desk would probably be made with 2-gauge wire.....

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